Video - Robert Craven interviews Warren Knight

VIDEO: 50:29 mins

AUTHOR: Robert Craven and Warren Knight

In this GYDA Talks, Robert interviews Warren Knight. Warren is an award-winning keynote speaker, a top 100 Global Influencer and top 100 Tech Influencer. He is internationally recognised as a speaker, trainer and coach on Digital Leadership & Digital Transformation, with nearly 15 years digital experience he’s an award-winning technology entrepreneur, certified Agile leader and author of Think #Digital First.

Change agent Warren Knight’s personal approach to transforming how we view disruptive technology is to empower individuals with positive choices to reach business objectives and as a result builds stronger companies and more engaged communities.

His vision is to, by 2035, help 1,000,000 leaders globally build a workplace based on culture, community, and technology for generation Alpha.

Robert and Warren discuss:

A controversial and feisty interview challenging the norms that most agencies have followed. A clarion call for agencies to be more adventurous and less conservative. Now is the time to bold and brave. Watch it at your peril. You may not like what is discussed.

• Back Story

• Digital Agility

• Digital Leadership

• Nurturing and engaging

• Value proposition

• Make it easy for clients to buy

• Find a niche within a niche

• The power of three

• Lifetime value of the customer

• Love the opportunity

• Where to create new value

• The two warrens

• Now is the time to perfect and build the business you will love

Transcription:

Robert Craven  00:57

Hello, and welcome to the GYDA talks. And I'm absolutely delighted today to have with me, Warren Knight. Now Warren is one of these. I'll say weird people on people. He's agency but not agency. But he's got so much to teach us. There's just so much to tell us about running an agency. So hello, and welcome, Warren.

Warren Knight  01:17

I thank you very much, Robert. And what a strange introduction. But thank you.

Robert Craven  01:21

It's a strange introduction. We're strange, strange bedfellows. So that I first came across you on about five or six years ago, and I was speaking at the professional speakers Association in London, and you were one of the speakers and stuff, I got this email saying, I'm speaking, and you're one of them, I think I was a judge or something. And I just want to, and then the next thing I knew was, was that I hadn't realised it. But in some senses, you'd been stalking me and you'd found out more information about me than I knew about. And it was like, Oh, my God, how did this guy figure out all this stuff? How did he know I'd been there? How did you know I like this house, you know, and it was it was an extraordinary, almost seduction into into someone who did digital marketing really, really well. Five years ago

Warren Knight  02:20

Seduction is a great word to use.

Robert Craven  02:22

And it was it was at the time, it was right at the time. It's revolutionary now. So what was so clever about that, but what you were doing at the time, and I'd like you to talk about some more of you helping, so you weren't an agency, but you did agency stuff, if that makes sense. You are helping in your work, sometimes what you were doing?

Warren Knight  02:45

Well, I'm going to take a couple of steps back rubber, because back in it was 2010. Actually, I built a tech company. And that tech company had investment into it. So we were running it as an agency, we, the unique part of the company was it was an E-commerce platform, and integrations into social media and other platforms and automate your content to go out pushing you out as a kind of a thought leader in your industry, but on the premise that you were going to get people to buy from you. But when I built that tech company, and I'm my one of my first employees, was a very young lad who was a skillful designer who went to college with your son. So that's how I actually you. And he was going Yeah, this guy, Robert Craven, Robert, who. And so I was like that, ah, okay, this guy. And so I have been stalking you for for many, many years. And the other Warren, which we might get onto, we really use you as an exemplar in regards to how you've adapted in various different environments and adapted your content, you know, to connect directly with your target audience and learning through that process of sometimes getting it wrong as we do. But learning through that, and then finding that niche, and then really kind of building out on that to add massive value to that audience. So I've been watching you for many years, Robert, so it's quite easy to actually to seduce you, because I knew a little bit more than what you realised.

Robert Craven  04:20

It's very, very, very, very fun. Anyway, I was I was I was very impressed by by the whole thing. And then you went on to help. I'm not going to use the S-blank E-word because I hate it. So help independent businesses, to work with social media and work with digital marketing. Is that a fair way of describing it?

Warren Knight  04:45

I think the way that I've now framed it, it's all around digital leadership. How can we take what's happening online in real time, and create thought leadership around who we are and around And our business. So really looking at we have some great customers, we've got some incredible case studies. But guess what, they're not sitting on our website, we never really talked about them. And who cares. So what? Well, actually, it's very, very important to take that value that you've already created. And as an agency as a business that wants to connect with people and add value to them. It's a fantastic way. And this is another exemplar that you know, very well uses this term, you know, you get your marketing done, right, there's no need for the sale. And so that's for me, is when I think about, especially the environment that we're in right now, and every single touchpoint, from the user journey perspective, has digital involved in it, how can we create that thought leadership and drive that forward so that when we're in that creation mode of a product, or we're delivering with our clients, or we're running a marketing campaign, or we're too busy picking up the phone and trying to make a sale, it doesn't matter which one of those zones that we're in, the content that we push out, will always sit there and always connect with somebody at the right time for the right reason to get the right results. So I love about digital leadership.

Robert Craven  06:17

So you're so I'm still positioning this. So you're not an agency? What you are, is you're someone who's showing independent businesses, how to use digital to the best advantage.

Warren Knight  06:33

Correct? What does that term agency, what does it mean? Yes, I have a team of people around me, after closing my tech company down, you know, being in Shoreditch and shareholders investors, I was like, I'm never going to employ anybody again. So now all of my team are all virtual. So am I agency? No, have I got a team around me? And do we deliver an outcome? Yes. So but I, you know, before locked down, and even now, actually, you know, you and I kind of connect on various different groups, delivering keynotes from standing at home, you know, creating value through training, you know, using some nice tech to deliver some incredible experiences for that audience is all the stuff that I love doing. So whether it's UK, whether it's, you know, Middle East Asia.

Robert Craven  07:21

But here's, here's the lesson for the audience, because the audience, our audience today are people who run lead agencies, somewhere between 5 and 200. Staff. So It's blindingly obvious. And in fact, you and I are both on a conference that's kind of happening now could speak printer, which is all about how you can use speaking to, to grow your business. So So the really interesting thing is nine out of not eight out of 10 agency organiser, an agency managing director CEO, they run an agency we do PPC, or we do SEO or we do web design. We do general marketing. And we go and we look for clients who are say, Hi, we're looking for PPC, SEO? No, I personally don't think people wake up in the morning and say, I need some PPC.

Warren Knight  08:13

I mean, think about that for a minute. Well, I don't

Robert Craven  08:16

think they do. I think they wake up in the morning, they might say I need some more better customers. But I don't think they say say I need some PPC. So straightaway. You're, you're you're you're you're playing in different games. There are a few agencies and the guy I'll quote is Gary Hamilton, quieter in Glasgow, who two years ago woke up. And he had I don't know 130 People and realised that being a digital marketing agency selling PPC and SEO and brand and web design was going to die because you because you're competing with Bangalore at $5 an hour you just it's not a sustainable offer, and that he needed to offer and deliver greater value to his clients. And the answer to that was a digital transformation piece. So we're now in a situation. Just bear with me for more. We're now in a situation where dare I say post COVID people are reevaluating their offer reevaluating what the customer really wants reevaluating how they can really add awesome value. And lots of people are saying I know I used to be a car driver. But wow, there's motorbikes over there they look. No, I'm a car driver. I stick to what I'm doing. Oh, wow. There's there's pushpot No, I'm

Warren Knight  09:41

taken by laurie. Yeah.

Robert Craven  09:43

That's interesting how we could make a drive and laurie. So so they're there and I know some who have moved literally over the last three months to become a full service marketing agency. Some have gone into consulting coaching, some have gone into teaching, but already.

Warren Knight  10:00

Little micronesian in particular area.

Robert Craven  10:02

Well, that's the thing a niche within a niche. Now that's, that's the genius bit that I love is anyone who does a niche within a niche or a niche, niche, niche niche? Yeah, as long as there's business, it's just awesome. So you've, you've, you've so I've watched you, because you've kind of tracked agencies have kind of, you've kind of, you're almost on the peripheral of their world?

Warren Knight  10:28

I am. I have quite, you know, I've worked with a lot of agencies over the years. And obviously, you know, you know, what it's like, it's all down to the owner, how the owner wants to drive the business forward? And how much is that individual kind of working on the business instead of in the business? And the thing is, with the I found with agencies anyway, they're on that hamster wheel, you know, or feast or famine, even because of, you know, whether the amount of staff that they've got, or, you know, the type of industry that they're in, and there's so much more competition there at the moment. What is their next step? How can they look at reinventing not only who they are, but also their business? And that niche within the niche is so powerful?

Robert Craven  11:11

That I mean, there are people who are probably about to hit the stop button. When you say they're on they're on the hands, they're on the hamster wheel is as if just it is that's quite a challenging comment to say, I mean, do you think you're possibly right that many fields are on a hamster wheel? Yeah. Is your argument that that you've found to use the HubSpot phrase a flywheel that is kind of fulfilling itself and maintaining itself?

Warren Knight  11:52

I think I think the easiest way to frame this as if we if we look at how we deliver an outcome or how we used to deliver an outcome, we very much used to be looking at that waterfall environment, you know, we'd go from one step to another step to another step to another step. Exactly. And the one thing that I did, you know, 10 years ago without really realising it is the importance of, you know, having business agility, and working in an agile environment. And since then, you know, I've worked with small business owners medium, I'm working with a technology company over in Saudi at the moment, you know, which is the second second best, biggest Technology Agency, in the UAE. And getting them into that mindset of, let's do something, let's test it, track it, let's try it out, let's build a minimum viable product within our business, push it out to a small niche audience, track and measure that and learn from that, and then build out from it from that perspective. So that hamster wheel is just we're doing it, we're doing it, we're doing it. But I think if we can come at it from a business agility perspective, and know that there is another way of working and another way of thinking, but we're going to take a bit of time to get there and focus on a niche within a niche and and test it, track it, try it and then build out and then implement it through the whole organisation. I think, you know, the business agility framework, if you like, is a much more powerful way to think about your business rather than a stepping stone process.

Robert Craven  13:27

But it's really one of the things about about, especially on the performance ended agencies is, as I said, I'm a car dealer. I mean, I'm what I'm doing at the moment, I'm running a programme using using video and video advertising. And I'm constantly amazed at how often people say yeah, video and you say, you've seen the stats for the ROI. You've seen the stats for how cheap it is doing video advertising, and they go, Yeah, but we're, we do PPC, standard PPC. Yeah. But but from the customer's point of view, it's all the same stuff. It's just it's your problem, that it's got a moving image. And that's different from something with a with a fixed image. And they're going Yeah, well we'll we'll stay where we are, because we're not quite comfortable with going going that far. Now, I think that's true whether you looked at a countenance or, whenever industry players or artists or anyone that they know what they know and I find they find the other the other corners of the box a little bit uncomfortable. Now they're, you know, your other Warren who you work with and you are to me, maybe we don't I'm not sure maybe there's just a sense of, of recognising that you know, things change and you need need to adjust to it rather than getting it getting stuck in one particular ruts. I mean, I'm always it just moving with the times.

Warren Knight  14:58

And I was actually having this comment session with him the other day. And I was I was thinking, you know, I've now I'm now 15, I've got two very young kids. But from a business perspective, I've lived through a couple of recessions, we're now in a completely different environment, which granted, you know, knowing how I adapt, and how I think about the environment, and the research that I do is still taking me six months now to pretty much get back to where I was before. We're in lockdown. And, and, but in doing so, I've had to get in different cars, sit on motorbikes get in a tractor, you know, look at all of those different ways, but more importantly, have my ear to the ground, all of the time, research, research research, it's so powerful, you know, to achieve that outcome. So I think they're, whether you're built that way or not, I don't know. But if you are running an agency at the moment, and it's something that you haven't done, to take a step back, and really look at your business and look at where the opportunities lie out there for you in the marketplace at the moment, if you don't do that, then somebody else will.

Robert Craven  16:11

So this is a I salute to, to agilities, that's the word that you've been using is agility. And so So what's been happening is that agencies have been going, okay, it was changed was contracts, we had been suspended. I mean, the budgets come back, they're going to be smaller. And maybe people don't want performance right now. But they will want brand but later on, they will want brand again, I think and and a lot of people have really, um, because they've just one of the things I found is that because they've struggled with their own their own issues, they've assumed that the clients had the same issue. So rather than going oh my god, we're gonna have to furlough half dozen people. Oh, my God, we're gonna have to sack up a dozen people. Oh, my God, we're gonna have to tighten our belts. I assume the clients are in the same in the same space. Yeah. And and, and actually, what the clients was screaming for and still are screaming for is can you please help us to navigate this uncertainty? Because you must know more than I know, because you're you're a marketing agency, and you deal with marketing all the time. Well, now, sorry, I didn't catch that.

Warren Knight  17:38

And we're in a digital world now. What do I know, you're the one that knows.

Robert Craven  17:44

So one, you know, chilling out and doing HubSpot, and doing Google seminars and webinars and online and offline and conferences. Of course, the agency is way ahead. And of course, the agency advantage in terms of remote working, working from home, whatever you want to call it, of course, great advantages in terms of measuring, and culture and all. So they had all those advantages. They have all those advantages. But I mean, this conversation is just making me think they've just been too, too narrow, and not step back. And it's kind of its kind of marketing 1b1, which is, you know, what's going on in the world? What's going on the industry? What's going on the marketplace? What's going on? I

Warren Knight  18:28

don't know if it's narrow. I think it's more blinkered, you think it's just, um, I know what I know. And I know how good I am doing it. And that's okay. And so I'm gonna just stay in that same car and stay in that same lane, and everything.

Robert Craven  18:48

That's what, you know, that's what the video stores said. They were they were safe. And they were they were they were sure. And so what are you saying? Is this a kind of death of traditional agency type conversation?

Warren Knight  19:07

I think a lot of those agencies that were excited about an acquisition, for instance, you know, there's they built a lot of great value. They've got great run Ray, you know, they're building this business, and it's an exit that they're looking for. And I think if that was something that that was on your horizon, I think the only way that you're going to really, truly get back to where you were before, is is reinventing, you know what this looks like. However, I've seen a couple of agencies, one particular PPC agency, you know, come out with a gorgeous new logo. It spent 1000s of pounds on it a month creating it over lockdown, and they've come up with this great new logo and fantastic strap line that talks directly to their target audience. But nobody knows about it.

Robert Craven  20:00

And it might be too late.

Warren Knight  20:03

Could well be too late. Now

Robert Craven  20:05

I know lots of agents are going on just just counter that. So. So we did the research 170 agencies 50% are above the line in terms of surviving or thriving and 50% are beneath the line in terms of struggling or dying. Talk about the detail, but essentially, that's the that's the piece. Now, two things, I think that that you said really, really resonated for me. So the first thing is you're thinking about and we both got a little bit of the old grey hair. About lots of people haven't been through through a recession before. And I have to say that a large number of agencies who are in the struggling mode, I actually don't think they're struggling, I think what they are in their own minds, they're struggling, they've just never been through a recession before. They don't know what working your backside off for three years. is like, okay. And when I want to also say I mean, I mean, in q2 of this year, it's sometimes it's a bellwether, all digital marketing. Google, their revenues went down by 10%. On on PPC and search, on average, 10% down, which is bearing in mind, a typical bad recessions 11% over the year, that 10%, one off is kind of probably okay, that's just 10%. So that means that if when you when you take PPC for grocery companies, for bike companies, for walking shoe companies for anything, online companies, all that stuff, which gambling, online, bike repairs, all that stuff, which went ballistic? Sure, the rest of the High Street kind of die, but only went down 10%. So there are there are agencies out there who are doing extraordinary well, and we have several clients here, who kind of go, actually, it's actually really, really good, because not only half our staff on furlough, and the rest of them are working from home, they've never been so effective. And we don't have meetings and that. So I wonder if the industry just doth protest too much sometimes.

Warren Knight  22:21

I think when you So you spoke about the grey hairs. And if you think about, I spent quite a lot of time go through personal development for various different reasons in the past, and having that right mindsets really powerful. We've got a client who's got an agency at the moment and every time we kind of meet in our mastermind sessions every month, it goes on about how much down he is and how much down he is and how much down he is. And yet, when we actually ask the question, so have you been able to acquire new clients because of this process that you're going through, and you've created different values in different areas and opened up new revenue streams for you, whilst the numbers aren't the same as what they were in the past, actually, the opportunity that sits in the growth opportunity, the speed at which that growth opportunity has happened, has not been anything like that is seen before. So I think we just need to be thinking about, you know, if we are sitting in that bottom half that you were talking about, it's not Oh, woe is me and the finger pointing It's all my fault. It's all my fault. Well, maybe maybe not. But however, you are still in control of you know, what you want to do and how you can get into that top 50%.

Robert Craven  23:31

And if you put it in, if you roll it back cost of customer acquisition a year and I was talking to a large agency customer customer acquisition a year ago, hire out the Hilton ballroom, giving them 50 People give them a goodie bag 10 staffing for the day fee people breakfast, feed them lunch, give them a glass of wine, yeah, 10,000 pounds for 100 people, you get 10 marketing sales qualified leads now send an email out for a webinar. Hopefully, it will turn up 10 sales qualified leads cost 10 pounds, you know, so. So it is cheapest chips, okay, now, yes, it's going to be cross sell and upsell more than more than a different

Warren Knight  24:15

Way of working right. It's a different way of working.

Robert Craven  24:17

Absolutely. And, and and also, I think the whole, why not lift the whole lot up and drop it down and not assume that anything that you did before has to be that way. And some agencies they just they just got it and other are trying to do stuff online that they did offline and they don't understand that actually just start again.

Warren Knight  24:47

I think the biggest just a point that you brought up just then in regards to the customer acquisition journey and the way that we used to do things and the way that we are have to evolve and think about the future and do things, thinking about the future, you know, with a future in mind, the biggest thing for me that I found with agencies is nurturing, you know, through the process of the customer acquisition journey, you know, they might be great at building a fantastic website when it finally launches. And they might be great at, you know, showing people the data when they've taken them through their, you know, three months, you know, initial phase, but where they're failing at the moment is that bit right in the middle, where they're not nurturing those individuals. They're not, they're not nurturing their LinkedIn connections, they're not nurturing the email database they've got, you know, they're not nurturing those opportunities with those partners that they've got that they created from an offline perspective, and now they're going online. And that nurturing phase is a huge part that they're missing out on.

Robert Craven  25:50

But now is the time that you can do that better than any other time at all. You've got, you've got people captured there, they can't go anywhere, you've got the opportunity to do one to one, okay, we're not having a cup of coffee, da da da, that while I'm not having a cup of coffee, I can't notice the interesting artwork, or the people walking past I'm committed. So what So so I'm 100% with you engagement, engagement, engagement, engagement, but also, you know, back to marketing, I want to back to marketing one on one, your value proposition, you know, has got to have, it's got to be sexy, not clever, sexy is just got to be. I want some of that. That sounds interesting that.

Warren Knight  26:37

Resonate with me, how can I find out more about them, and making it easy for them to find out more about them? You know, I don't know about you, but I'm these these businesses that have kind of 5,6,7 boxes that you've got to fill in, to be able to them, you know, before you even send through piece of communication: Okay, you know, I do do that when I run my paid advertising campaign over to Middle East. And I want to get booked to be a keynote speaker, because I don't want 10 inquiries where they want me to come and speak for free. So what I do is I specifically rule those people out by asking focus questions. However, the stage one of that nurturing phase is how can we bring them in, and then nurture them through that process? Once we've got them?

Robert Craven  27:20

For I? It's, we I mean, we run as you know, we run a bunch of programmes for some of the big platforms. So I'm given once every three months, I'm given 30 agencies we're gonna work with. Okay, so I go through the websites, I can guarantee guaranteed you one, all the websites are identical. They all they all offer the identical. Were award winning. The world winning, we deliver awesome value for money. customer first. And what makes us really different is our obsession with customers. Yeah, yours. And then climbing trees, pulling ropes, blah, blah, you're on you're really, really unremarkable. But the thing that really worries me is I would say that 25% of agency websites that I look at look at, and I see lots I should know, I haven't actually haven't got a clue what they do.

Warren Knight  28:21

What they do.

Robert Craven  28:22

Because they do proactive, systematic, strategic overviews with a view to process reengineering the structure.

Warren Knight  28:33

By data that can be used to amplify your.

Robert Craven  28:37

Amplify your message through channels. Or we help you get more customers. I'm not sure which one I prefer which one.

Warren Knight  28:45

I like, you've always been very good at nailing the value proposition there, Robert.

Robert Craven  28:51

Well, it moves doesn't it? So, so what so let's just just spin this around, because the agents are a bit of a bashing. What separates a successful agent is from the unsuccessful ones.

Warren Knight  29:13

That were out, I'm going to talk about the now I think, you know, and how agencies as a whole struggle on understanding the true value of the customer acquisition journey and connecting with that customer, all those different touch points. However, the opportunity for partnerships, you know, we spoke about go niche within a niche. There are a couple of agencies that I've worked with. And when we've actually drilled down on where the real value set within the organisation where 80% of that revenue came from. It was actually from one particular thing that they were doing that it absolutely nailed every single part of that process. And you can take that one absolutely thing that you've nailed, and then go and talk to other agencies that are out there that haven't done that one absolutely thing that you've nailed. So for me, partnerships is and should be one of your key routes to market, you know, now and in the future, especially some of those.

Robert Craven  30:15

You're an example of the process that someone might have nailed that they might be able to.

Warren Knight  30:21

So the the power of digital PR, right? I'm going to create an infographic of the UK. And there's 32 different touch points that my particular brand said, this is where the value comes from, please will you mister newspaper or online magazine or influencer, where you take this and take the HTML code, throw it on your website, so we get a nice backlink that enables us to increase that value for that particular landing page. Does that make sense? So taking that concept of being able to nail digital PR and work with an agency that talks about being an SEO specialist, or a PPC specialist, or brand specialist, and working collectively with them, and putting an opportunity on the table where their value proposition sits front and centre right at the very beginning, that's the thing that they get bought into. But when we think about you know, and I know you focus on this as well, we understand the real lifetime value of a customer. And that reoccurring revenue can come from mapping out when we can bring that part in or marketing of that part in of marketing of that part in a marketing. And if we're not the best at it, let's just make sure that we do work with the best in the industry and partner with those individuals.

Robert Craven  31:50

So what's your view then? Of? So five years ago, Google was the the only gig in town. Okay. Now, it clearly isn't. And now the, you know, fancy infographic I just saw on the other day, I think there's like something like 25,000 different SaaS products that can help in digital digital marketing. What do you think the what do you think the world agents is going to face is going to look like in 12 months time, because everyone's so confused about you know, so I got one agency we work with, I met them, they were pure PPC, there are eight there are now 6570 people and they've decided our niche within a niche is a couple of industries within PPC. And we're just going to nail that it's a vulnerable place to be. But that's what they've chosen to do. I know another another agency that's chosen to focus on hospitality and they got totally slaughtered. The only way of describing it in last few months. And I know of some that have gone down kind of happened to be in online gambling the done I know some that have decided to bring in Bing and Google to so they got a bigger offer. Some have gone become full service agencies, some, as I said, have gone to digital transformation. I mean, do you think do you think it's, it feels like it's kind of wild west? Because there's no playbook? I mean, what what do you I guess what I'm asking you is 12 month time, where do you think that the sweet spots are going to be?

Warren Knight  33:38

I think it's, you know, I'm gonna use that word love, but I'm gonna use that word love in a way of it, you know, if the agency owner is isn't waking up every day, and loving the opportunity to be challenged and loving the opportunity to be, you know, to, to have diversification in what they're doing. So, you know, reinvent what they're doing, looking at ways of how they can you know, remaster their products and services. You know, I'm a big believer in the ANSOFF matrix, and you look at where is real breakthrough innovation happening compared to just diversification happening, where we can take an existing product and repackage it and look at a new industry that we can, you know, position that into, I think if that agency owner isn't waking up every day and going this is a fantastic opportunity for me to really reflect on everything that we've been doing. And you know, as a small business, I've been really challenged over the last six months because everything that I used to get success with in the past has now shifted slightly you know, whether that's now I'm going to throw money at you know, Instagram among the knockout some reels inside of Instagram because that's where that's what they want there. Whatever that looks like not saying that's right or wrong. But um you know, it is a case of making sure that we are looking at our metrics and our metrics around what that what's that what, what's working, and, you know, fall in love with that. And so that's one thing, I think, you know, you've got to fall in love with the day job, you've got to wake up, you know, and knowing even if you were ready to go for an acquisition, and that's now it's not happening, don't worry, Oh, me. Look at where you can create that new value in those new opportunities. And like you say, you've spoken about industries, you know, I love the power of three. And, you know, if you're an agency, and you're niching, within a niche to say, three industries that you can clearly see that are going to have an opportunity, maybe not right now, you know, but maybe in six or 12 months, they need to get back into amplifying their message online, if we can. So one agency that I know in the hospitality travel industry has decided that the business owner is going to position themselves as that thought leader around how people are travelling to destinations, what their expectations are, when they arrive at those destinations, and how those hotels and resorts are talking about what they're doing around the current environment. And she's decided to position yourself as that go to person having conversations with the local authority, local tourism, the CEO of the local tourism, or, you know, the CEO of booking.com, or wherever, and just pushing out this great content or free, but just putting it out there really positioning themselves as that go to person knowing that when they have a new value proposition that they're bringing to the market that's really clear and very succinct, to that niche industry, that they're just going to open up the floodgates immediately. So spend quality time and create that thought leadership. But you can't do that unless you love what you're doing.

Robert Craven  37:01

So maybe you've just you've just hit it on the head there. Because it's been pretty damn depressing in the agency world the last last six months.

Warren Knight  37:14

Depends if your niche within a niche there, right, because a couple of guys that I know.

Robert Craven  37:19

Some who like dogs with two tails, don't get me wrong. But the majority of people don't see this as an opportunity. Now they see this as a struggle. And it's really interesting, I put together all the data on previous recessions and how people who recover and how they recover when they recover. I'm sure you've seen Ernst and Young Business Review. So all it all says, you know, be bold, go out there. But there's a real sense of fear. And a real sense of for me, they didn't know how good they had it. You know, they were grumbling about how difficult it was getting customers before. It's like, yeah. So your your clarion call for positive thinking? How do you how do people know that it's not a not a light at the end of the tunnel isn't just a express train coming straight towards them? How do they know that they're not going to do all this niche within a niche focus stuff. And then when they actually get there, they discover that they've gone down the wrong tunnel.

Warren Knight  38:37

And I know this is probably something that you do when you talk to the 30 agencies that are coming through the programme, you know, question that you ask them is, when was the last time you spoke to your customers? When's the last time you took you made an effort to truly understand where your customers are at the moment? And not only having a conversation with you know, your your direct contact is actually there? Would it be right if I could have a conversation, you know, with the MD or with the salesperson or with a marketing person, whatever it might be, and actually get a true helicopter overview of the reality. That's what's happening right now. And like I say, l ove the power three, or you could do is pick three players. They could be sit at medium, large and corporate, for instance, and pick three of those players in the industry. And just ask them those questions. And you can do it on the back of a podcast. You sort of mentioned during the back of a video, we'd love to interview you to find out what you know what's going on. And they say what they say to the camera, when the camera stops, right. Come on. Now really talk to me about what's going on right now. You've given me all that. Now talk to me about what's going on. When you have those answered. You know, one thing that you mentioned earlier, you know, one thing that I love doing I've got a book here and every single conversation that we have and every event that we run and you know what Every mastermind session, whatever it might be, I write down those words that people talk about how they're feeling right now. And what is it that's important for your customers? It just that very simple word clarity. They want clarity on how you can help them. Wow, we mean that one word means so much to you. Yeah, that was actually just just just take your time to understand do that research.

Robert Craven  40:27

I think that's fascinating. So I know, not because a little birdie told me I know, because I've been following you. I don't know how to introduce this. I suppose. I've known Warren Kas. For a number of years, I've been skiing with Warren Kas for about 12 years, every year when everyone everyone knows I talk about my ski trip. That's with Warren. I've been with, I've been in mastermind groups in I've spoken for him, I spoken for him. Prior to going skiing with him. I probably know more in the best part of 20 years. I've known of you and around you. And we've talked probably 10 years I don't dread to think what it is. And now the two Warrens, the two W's are together,

Warren Knight  41:16

WC and Wk, M the WK WC

Robert Craven  41:22

for the WWE, anyhow. So you guys have got together which was like, it's either marriage made in heaven, or it's going to be totally disastrous. But I mean, it's fantastic. Because Warren Warren has the black book to die for us. Anyway, the other Warren has the black book to die for and has the capacity of getting sponsorship from anyone and everyone and everyone he meets falls in love with what a nice guy Warren is. And then you've got this technical know how as well as being as well as being a really nice guy. So So exactly what for the people who are listening and watching, they're going to be fascinated that you've, you've kind of had a disruptive agency model, and you've, you're doing agency stuff that you're doing differently. So it's mainly what you're used to Warren's doing.

Warren Knight  42:13

I think the the marriage made in heaven as been the fact that we are a little bit older. And you know, we've both built and grown and lost companies over the years. And, you know, I wasn't looking for a, you know, to build a business, you know, per se. But then when Warren and I sat down, and we'd known each other for well over 10 years, there was actually this one particular time that the business show where both of us were delivering a keen eye keynote, both of us, you know, had a certain positioning, and yet they take a more Cassius picture and put it onto my positioning for my keynote. But I think we were talking about this the other day, and I think the the easiest way for me to explain this is, you know, we all love listening to music, right? Whatever that music is. We love listening to music, and more. And I think of music completely differently for him. And you'll know this the depth that Warren thinks the depth that he goes into and thinks about and you'll be talking and then it'll look like he's ignoring you. But he's not thinking deeply around the best way to help you to help answer that question or solve that problem, or whatever it might be. So for him, if he listens to a song, and the lyrics are rubbish, he's got no interest in that song. Right? If it hasn't got depth to it, and he can't get hold of it, and emotionally doesn't connect with him. He doesn't want to know about it.

Robert Craven  43:45

But he dances like a white man. And that's

Warren Knight  43:49

This is where the different comes, I used to be a professional hip hop dancer, right when I was younger, so and if you look at my Warren like branding, I actually built that on the Run DMC logo. So I took their branding and repurposed it with my Wk logo. And for me, if it's got a great beat, and I've got a riff that I can get ahold of, and, you know, a little bit of moonwalking on then from a surface level, as long as I've understood the structure of what's happening with the song, and I can bring certain, you know, moves or moments or I know, this little bits come, it's got a great riff in that I can sing to, for me, that that that that song is something that I can listen to over and over and over again. Now, the pelvis coming together, if you think about it, not only from a song perspective, but also the layers of an onion, where it sits right in the centre. He's at the core, he wants to understand what your core values are. And you know what your objectives are and the reasons why you do things. I sit on the outside and I go, well, now we've got that we've got very clear value proposition, how can we go and track and measure every single aspect of that? Go back and actually see sit down and understand after you built this minimum viable product, what was it that went wrong? And could we make it right? If not trash it? If we could make it better, what would that better look like, and let's build a little campaign to make that happen for you. So for me, I kind of sit on the outside of the onion, and Warren sits at the core of that onion. So the power of us together, it's has been quite formidable and that a not from I'm just not saying that, whilst I am the feedback that we get the testimonies and the videos that people create for us. And you know, I've watched and I've seen some of yours, people feel the same way about what you're doing, you know, when people have a true shift, and they truly understand that they've got value from the more the time that they've spent and actually the money, that's where the difference comes from. And so, yes,

Robert Craven  45:52

for Warren, so just to be precise, propositions and all that. So what are you doing for whom?

Warren Knight  46:00

Well, we help people with knowledge, create a business that they love. And out of that, you know, we look at, you know, the type of methodology that you use, the type of propositions that you're going to market with at the moment. And you know, the depth before that, and then the content and data after all of that, and then analysing how you can increase your worth in lots of different ways, whether it's recurring revenue, or in, I don't want to be doing that anymore. You mentioned a couple of, you know, agency owners, I just want to create a retreat every quarter of the year, and charge 100 grand for it. And that's all I want to do. That's it. So it's taking somebody's expertise and building a business that they love.

Robert Craven  46:50

So just pulling it pulling this all together. Because the interesting thing is you're saying like all agency owners, what you're good at is the how and this this kind of this is kind of a a call out to agencies if they can get together with people who are doing the why the whether it's the the strategy, the strategy consultant for the marketing consultants, that they can there's there's an obvious that joint venture opportunity to use their skills, which is what you've done their skills to do the doing. But But link with someone or something or some organisation that does the does the wine piece does the core values, the core strategy piece? Which is really interesting, because this this conversation is kind of been doing it's kind of been like this in terms of for the audience, will they will they be getting the

Warren Knight  47:51

beat that we'd be getting our cars and go around a Formula One track?

Robert Craven  47:55

Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. That exactly that exactly. That. So just to just to, to pull this thing together. Last question. Yes. So what are your I mean, we've kind of covered this off in a way but I'd still like to ask it because I always asked you, or your your, your your nuggets or your your pearls of wisdom for those that are currently running a digital agency who bearing in mind we are inverted commas post COVID.

Warren Knight  48:32

Yep. And I've smiling you, same post COVID. But you know, we're locked down to where it will we go and look down three, what does that look like? My gut feeling is, and you touched on it earlier, now is the perfect time to be building the business that you love. And you're in this you've got this great opportunity to take one, step two, step three steps back, whatever that might be. That might mean you know, going into new industries, it might mean you know, kind of cutting some staff it might there might be different, lots of different reasons what that why looks like, but for you, as an individual invest in understanding what's important to you, because I don't know what it's been like for you. But I've got two kids under the age of four. So my mental fitness has been challenged over the past six months. And so to understand that and know that there's been the right people around you for the right reasons because they love you. They love what you're doing and they've got your best interests at heart. Find out what you want. Find out what really sits at your core and have that core that core value front and centre on everything that you do. Put it on your website, put it in your partnership programme, put it in your content that you're sharing, put it in that thought leadership video that you want to create. In, I think, let's not, let's not because it's digital, humanise it. Let's be real about this. And let's look at ways of how we can create massive value in this new normal that we're going to be moving into and recreate a business that when you started, your agency was the one that you really wanted. And now, because of the particular situation, it's now not, you are in control of this. So take the time to fall back in love with it.

Robert Craven  50:47

Absolutely perfect. Absolutely perfect. Warren Knight, thank you so very much for being an awesome guest. It's been playing.

Warren Knight  50:56

I had no idea where this was going to go, Robert, with you. But thank you very much. I really enjoyed it.

Robert Craven  51:04

Being absolutely great. So Warren, thank you very much. Warren's details and URL and all that stuff will be afterwards. So once again, a really big thank you to Warren. Thank you very much indeed. It's been great.

Warren Knight  51:16

No problem. Thank you for having me, Robert. Thank you.