Video - Robert Craven interviews Jeremy 'JJ' Jacobs

VIDEO: 50:04 mins

AUTHOR: Robert Craven and Jeremy Jacobs

In this GYDA Talks, Robert talks to Jeremy Jacobs. Jeremy 'JJ' Jacobs is the genuine article, a true Sales Rainmaker. He has devoted his life to understanding sales issues. He continues to research and share evolving as well as new insights into sales interactions. Unlike many of the profession who continue to preach out-of-date systems (methods) from the 1980s and 1990s he looks to the future. The way we buy and sell has undergone a radical shift in expectations and behaviours. What used to work often now seems hackneyed and artificial. JJ gets to the heart of current issues with his mentoring and shows clients and customers a better, more sustainable way to engage. The digital age, with new brain science, makes the old techniques appear false and forced.

Robert and Jeremy discuss:

• What is the Sales Rainmaker?

• You start with the person

• Understand the client first

• Bricks & mortar, selling online or both...?

• How easy is it to do business with you?

• "Go the extra mile"

• Experience fails - plenty of them

• What should a PSF do?

• Customer Experience

• Hunt or farm?

• New or existing customers?

• Become a disruptor with new clients

• The biggest problem - the status quo bias

• Give a compelling reason to buy

• Closing = manipulation - people have seen it all before.

• Not closing a deal but opening a relationship

• Be of service

• Everyone has a different 'pennydrop' moment

• See the long-term picture

Final one-liners

1) don't lose money out the backdoor

2) know who are your best clients

3) explain the value

4) don't sell too cheap

Transcription:

Robert Craven  00:44

Hello and welcome to GYDA Talks and today I'm absolutely delighted to have Jeremy Jacobs who is known as the sales Rainmaker. Hello, Jeremy.

Jeremy 'JJ' Jacobs  00:54

Hello, Robert, how are you doing?

Robert Craven  00:55

 We're doing very well indeed. So let's start off let's get straight to it sales Rainmaker. What does that mean?

Jeremy 'JJ' Jacobs  01:02

Right, okay. Well, I was sitting down with a mentor of mine. And about three or four years ago, and we just wanted to come up with a name. There was a backstory to all this. And he has spent a lot of time in the states in business and also working for the State Department in the USA as well. And he said, How about Rainmaker? And I thought, I gave it about four seconds. I said, Yeah, let's do it. And from the feedback I'm getting from various people in the UK, and from our friends across the pond. It's a fairly nice name to use, having said that in the States, a lot of speakers and gurus and these types of people and consultants tend to use their own name.

Robert Craven  01:47

 I love the idea of a sales Rainmaker. There was a book I can't remember what it was, but there was a book. There were many years ago called the Rainmakers I think. What does a sales Rainmaker do?

Jeremy 'JJ' Jacobs  02:06

He creates or helps to create more profitable sales for people it was struggling a bit. And basically, these can be sales directors, individual people like yourself, Robert, small sales team, anybody who wants to try and advance their sales a bit more than saying, well, we need to have more of it. But as I grew up I regarded myself as a sales mentor rather than a coach or a trainer.

Robert Craven  02:38

We always know when someone says with all due respect, they're about to be rude. So with all due respect, there are lots and lots of people out there using the counter the labour sales trainer, sales coach, sales this, sales that and we can all go to Google and we can Google sales trainer sales tips, how to make more customers, how to find more customers, how to get more better customers, I mean, more better customers is the number one.

Jeremy 'JJ' Jacobs  03:10

More and better. Yeah.

Robert Craven  03:13

Is your approach the same but packaged differently? Is your approach Old Fashioned? Is it modern? What's the angle that you're coming at it with Jeremy?

Jeremy 'JJ' Jacobs  03:25

People, people panic, people are worried particularly at the moment. And come individuals, like companies like even countries do suffer from time to time from a lack of confidence. So rather than just giving you some tools, or sort of, well, this is going to help you for the next few months, let's just look at the person. So you could say, and I'm saying this tongue in cheek slightly, though I'm a life coach for sales. But I'm not the sort of person who is trained anyway, in terms of life coaching, and the skills that you require for that. But you know, I know about sales, and I know about people. And I think you have to look at the person, where are they coming from, what sort of character they are, and find out exactly what they want to do. So my approach isn't so much. Let's help you with this particular customer. It's more of a generic thing. So I asked him about their life, what they want to do, what their objectives are. And one of the things I've give away really, in our talk, is with most people, I give them a five year plan for the future. What is it you want to achieve in your personal life, professional life, all these sorts of things, but more importantly, in terms of the business, what is your objective? What are the strategies? If you haven't worked out, you're going to adopt and, you know, what are the tactics? I think a lot of people get hung up on tactics and don't really necessarily understand where they want to be in three or four or five years' time. I'm and so we start with that. And then we go on to, you know, who's your client and all the rest of it that comes afterwards. So I always start with the person, or the group of people I'm with and because if you don't, you know, just a generic sales trainer type person, you're never gonna know you're never going to get into the heads of the people. And part of selling the most important part is understanding your client, understanding what makes them tick, what are their deficiencies? What are their strengths, their weaknesses, all? All the old SWOT stuff. So that's where we come from. And yes, along the way, there is training and there is to teach people various things.

Robert Craven  05:46

Do you have a kind of, I suppose you call it , a rule book or a playbook? Or is it in this situation for this type of person selling this type of person they need to adopt strategy?

Jeremy 'JJ' Jacobs  06:09

 I don't think life works that way. You can have these, these are you use the term playbook, which I always find a very interesting term. Again, let's look at the person that let's see what they're trying to achieve. The next thing Are you an online business? Or are your bricks and mortar business? Or your combination of both like many companies? How easy is it to do business with you? And we start looking, let's look at the deficiencies. I mean, a top management consultant was saying that a business will, you know, will tell me Look, Jeremy, companies are struggling because I'm either losing money at the back door, they're not creating value. They don't know how to display value or create value for a client. They don't know how to find customers. And then when they get a deal, they tend to give too much money away. So those are the sort of four areas which people tend to struggle with. So people can either they're either losing money at the back door, which is with your existing clients, you don't know who your clients are, your best clients are as to thirdly, you cannot properly explain what value is to them, or what value you can offer them. And fourthly, when you're selling something, you're discounting when you're sending it too cheap or for the wrong amount. So and that sort of that those four things cover, you know, really the whole gamut of business, about working hard, being focused, getting your pricing right, and creating value.

Robert Craven  07:56

How do you present me the issue that digital agencies most agencies have is they're generic and commoditized, you go to every single website, and everyone has pictures of people pulling ropes, we work together, we add awesome value, we're award winning, and what makes us unique is our obsession with customer service. And they're all the same and not remarkable. They're no different than in fact, they're blinking, boring. So is that really a marketing problem, or is that a psychological problem?

Jeremy 'JJ' Jacobs  08:36

It's probably everything. Most people are in commoditized business of one form or another. And again, I go back to creating the value. And the real key to get to command a higher price, and your own product and your service or in the case of a digital agency, your particular brand of SEO and how it all works, is to find out is to get into the head of that customer, what do you want to achieve now? And then start to question where their business is going, not in a negative way. And the whole key to any business decision to anybody. The whole key is to find out those unforeseen opportunities that may exist at some point down the road. So it's finding out about your client and then finding out about your clients, clients, what's their story, what they want to achieve. So you're quite right, Robert, nobody wants to know about the past. Another well known sales guru in this country said, has a square with four quadrants, you know, there's the sellers past, the sellers future, the customers past or the customers future, you've got to focus on the customers future. And that would make that would help you stand out. sounds odd, sounds like a very easy thing to do. But we've both been to those networking things online and offline. And first of all, we hear we have great customer service. I mean customer service is not a department. We're not interested that you're a full service, sort of, you know, legal firm with five offices, and we have wonderful people, you know, it's all the same. And I think people are interested in that people want to get results. As far as a digital agency is concerned, you can have, I'm sure many of the better ones do have great case studies, or we did with this for customer X. And we've found by doing this, this and this, we've done that. So that's a way I'm not saying it's everything. Because again, case studies can be too generic. But probably it's about listening and attentive listening.

Robert Craven  10:43

You're voting for and I support that kind of, you know, Back to Basics thing, which is listening is an anagram of silence and all that. And therefore, if you just shut up off the right questions and shut up, all will be revealed.

Jeremy 'JJ' Jacobs  11:02

Yes, you've got to be a bit more nuanced than that. But yes, in essence, you're absolutely right, you've got to just shut up. And it's amazing the number of sellers that just don't do that. And you're too busy and enthusiastic about your prices, or your product or this and that it's incredibly boring. And it might have worked in the past where people's businesses weren't quite so commoditized. Or going back to my past, you know, photocopiers look quite different to each other. Now that it's been like these SUV cars, I mean, to me, they're all the same. They just look all the same. So what are the differentiators? And a lot of the time, the differentiator is you is how you listen, is what you do to the client? It's how you turn up now? And then you said, what suit and tie do you wear? I guess in that marketplace, you probably don't wear that. But it's really common courtesy. It's all the little things. I think success in business, Robert, is about getting lots of all the little things right, whether it's your business card, or the way you look, or are you early or late for a meeting, or it's a mixture of all those things.

Robert Craven  12:24

 I've seen him reams of books behind you. I've got reams of books behind me, we've got the power of Google. Why have we not figured out this sales thing?

Jeremy 'JJ' Jacobs  12:51

As an excellent question. I think it's my own personal view. I think we have some excellent sales people in this country, don't get me wrong, and some very hard working people in this country, I think a lot of people are just too comfortable. Or they have a sense of entitlement. Or they think the world revolves around them. It doesn't. And it's a success in selling as about, it's not a nine to five job, not number one. So you got to find people who want to work, you know, rather 14 and 15 hours a day rather than sort of nine to five. And people have got vision, I think there are very few people who I don't the average salary or salaries nowadays, but a lot of people can get by on an average salary plus, or it doesn't occur to them, they can earn 100,000 pounds doing this or 150,000 pounds a year, selling this or selling the other. And you know, you can do that in a digital age, in a digital agency. I got my teeth wrong. And I just think it doesn't occur to people to work that much harder. I think there is also in this country, we have the benefit system, we have unemployment and we have all these things. People can fall back on rather than sort of wanting to get on in the States and Australia. I think people are much more sales orientated, and certain parts of the continent. And they're more driven. Over here. It's a little bit different.

Robert Craven  14:32

Yeah, I mean, it's amazing. I was on a call the other day for this big, big global conference that I'm hoping for. There are 30 or 40 speakers on it and there's like five Brits and every one of the Americans was like, Hi, my name is Jolene. I'm number one. Whatever they are in my niche generating $10 million of revenue for every one of my clients at the cost of owning $100,000 On my website is where you can download my five step process to get your nine steps to, you know, and the Brits alive.

Jeremy 'JJ' Jacobs  15:10

Of course, apart from your course. English people in particular, we don't have this sort of, you know, we're just the culture is different over here is quite different.

Robert Craven  15:29

Does that mean that if you want to stand out, part of selling is about standing out for the right reasons?

Jeremy 'JJ' Jacobs  15:39

I'm really pleased you said that, or added the suffix standing out for the right reasons not standing up for the wrong reasons. It sounds silly, but yeah, you're right. And a lot of people stand out for the wrong reasons. You've got to have that blend of power and standing out, but you've got to have a heck of a lot of humility, and empathy. And if the people watching this, learn nothing else, from our chat with you, learn everything and be everything, always be as empathetic as you possibly can. But really, you know, before you walk into that customer's door, you gotta put your ego in your pocket, or better still, leave your ego on the kitchen table, before you leave home. So it's those things and humility, you can see, you could argue it's the same sort of thing. And that is what it's about. And it's very, very hard to get that in one person.

Robert Craven  16:40

Don't think there's a kind of a, with the last 10 years, there's been this whole thing about which is really about advertising. Ironically, digital advertising, which is all there's a magic flywheel for every lead that you get that costs you $10. You need five of those to get one client and then clients then worth $1,000. And that will then feed the flywheel and there's this kind of idea about this magic, magic money tree around marketing and sales. And all you gotta do is get a product and it's about, you know, it's a Perry Marshall thing. It's about traffic, conversion, and economics. And if you can double the traffic, or you can double the conversion, or you can double the economics, you double the money at the bottom. And if you double all of them, you know, happy days now is that? Does that just work for product business to consumer product? Or is that just 21st century poppycock?

Jeremy 'JJ' Jacobs  17:51

I don't know about I'm not quite sure what you mean. But yeah, well, I don't think it is 21st century public art. I think it works online for low level one is the wrong word describing it on inexpensive tickets, b2c situations sorry, business to consumer. And if you're selling pens, the old chestnut, if you're selling pens online, then it's a way of doing it. And again, where is your business? Are you online? Are you a digital consumer? Are you commoditized? Or are you a little bit different? And you can be different in a difficult marketplace. One of the best examples I've seen in recent years are those wonderful cinemas called IMAX. I mean, look at the competition they are facing. And yet they will get people to come into London or wherever they are. They've got 1600 cinemas worldwide, well before the pandemic, and people will pay double or treble to cease to have an experience. So they've got it right, they've got their experience rights. And I think they're terrific at what they do. And it can sit if you consider that most people can stay at home and watch Netflix or whatever boxset that I get confused with all the stuff and yet people will still hopefully post pandemic will be driving into London, if they can, and parking. I'm going to an IMAX because they want the experience. And that is what it's all about. It's about experience and it always has been.

Robert Craven  19:42

It's not just about having a sales process and system and so on and so forth. It's got to be linked to ideally something that has something experiential that I would argue, I would argue and that experiences everything in Are we both know Jeff RAM talks about celebrity experience, he gave me this line the other day, which was kind of stopped me in my tracks, which was if you've got a client coming to see you, what do you do? coffee cups coffee, wipe down the table usual stuff. He said, What about if it was Angelina Jolie or Brad Pitt? Would you behave in a different manner? It's like, God. Yes. It's like, cool. So and then the next question is, so why wouldn't you treat all your clients like a celebrity?

Jeremy 'JJ' Jacobs  20:31

Great. Jeff's right. I remember another one of our friends, Frank Finesse. He was talking about an experience in a hotel in Dubai. It is always in Dubai, isn't it? And there was one particular experience, but he was made to feel up, I think this was made to feel a million dollars. And special, it was special at all. But it's perception. I mean, I have on a much more mundane level, I had a problem with a very expensive dishwasher and a certain property I own and you know that the no dishwasher sorry, washing machine, the door broke. And I went back to the guy who helped me out two weeks ago. And, yeah, don't look into it. I call you back, thinking you don't call me back, that I've done this, I've done that. And then he phones back again, saying, well, actually, I got a problem delivering it, I'll give you a call back when it's on its way. And he did that. And I thought, it's no wonder I've gone back to this guy, you know, five times in the last 15 years. Because they go to quote that horrible example, that goes the extra mile. And they put themselves out and this is exactly what it's about. We were talking about Amazon, before we came on air, they got it right. I mean, one of the books behind me, I think I bought one of those crazy little things for it saves you sort of getting one of the things now called those cutters. Anyway, never mind. It's one of those confidential stamps, I can just do that. Rather than having another device and the order came in, it was a big label, thank you very much for your order. I mean, you know, it sounds silly, but nobody else doesn't. Well, I go back to these people again, yes, I will go back to these people. It is all about the experience. And whether you're a digital agency, or you're selling plastic buckets, or pens, it's the same sort of thing. Got to look after the people.

Robert Craven  22:34

So your argument is that one world is incredibly commoditized. But you have the opportunity to always have a unique fingerprint for one a better phrase, and therefore there's always you and therefore you can always put your style and your flavour on that. And that you can also do that with the experiment we had a client several years ago, who was one of the top four by four car manufacturers. And in the process, we visited all the four by four showrooms to see what the customer experience was like. And some of it from the best. Who you would have thought would be the best was like, Well, you've already got one of our cars. The question was, why should I buy another one of your cars? And the answer was, well, you've already got one, why wouldn't you buy another one? And it was like, and have you got the model in stock? No. Have you got a brochure for it? No. Can you show me online? No, the internet's not working. So you want me to spend 70,000 pounds, because I've already got one of your against actually the cheapest of the four by fours, who is far more, it's far more like going to home base than the car showrooms. That was so incredibly friendly and helpful and made a brilliant suggestion, which was as much as he saw that my wife was looking at a two seater soft top rather than spending 70,000 on the four by four, why don't you spend 50,000 pounds on one that's a year old. And then you can buy your wife, a three year old, two seater, everyone. It's like, you know, the guy had thought through what we wanted. He listened. He'd seen that my wife was eyeing up the two seater, so he came up with a better solution. You got rid of two cars off the forecourt not one you know, happy days and all he had to do was kind of engage us by looking us in the eye and listen and figure out how he could help us as opposed to just being aloof.

Jeremy 'JJ' Jacobs  24:47

It's almost criminal to hear that and it's not the first time I've heard it as well. And I had a similar experience in a well known department store in brain cross which you know quite well not last year because I After a bit, and I thought, I'm not going here. I mean, I just couldn't believe the way I was treated. It wasn't rude. It's just indifference.

Robert Craven  25:11

Yeah, so flipping it back. So if you run a digital agency, if you run a professional service firm via an accountant or lawyer or an architect or a surveyor or marketing agency, you're b2b, you're good at what you do, what you sell is kind of difficult for people to identify because it's not a product. So you can't sort of identify features you're selling a promise, you're selling a dream in a way, what are the things that our professional service firm can do to be better at sales?

Jeremy 'JJ' Jacobs  25:53

 I had a very interesting, almost heated discussion with a lawyer, or two lawyers actually, not within 5 or 10 miles from where I'm sitting. And we were talking in their mind not mine reception, but where they would have a client and you're dealing with you're taller people who deal with family, private client, some, you know, some property work or various types conveyancing and so on that sort of, you know, typical firm, and you go into this room, and all you see, like, all these holes, me statutes everywhere, everything has to do with the law, which is the last, if someone's coming in and they want to divorce, it's the last thing they want to see is that it's making the client feel comfortable. Another very bad example. And you see this at golf clubs, don't you? You drive into a golf club. It's got like, Chairman, capture, ladies captured. Everyone else is gonna go over here somewhere. Yeah, it's a bit like saying, Well, screw you, cut Vista, we're more important than you. And I think it's the same sort of thing. It's the same sort of thing. It is making it welcoming. Going back to my story of the bed, I ended up going somewhere else. A well known High Street store, and I came once in there. And this young guy comes to me said, Hello, sir. Thanks for coming. Look, can I get you a cup of tea or coffee or something? I mean, I was flattered. I mean, I was flabbergasted. I thought, yeah, we've had a cup of tea, I think, but it was just so kind and welcoming. And guess who got the business. So whether you're a professional services firm, you know, it's the same sort of thing. And that's all that's on a human level. And if someone has taken the time and trouble to come down and see you, you know, you've got to be welcoming. Okay, if you're dealing with conveyancing, that's a little bit different. Because I think you have to put it, I think lawyers now have to put their fees on the website and are a little bit more restricted by the law, society and so on. But even so, it's tough, most people don't move house, I think most people move house every eight to 10 years. So it's not as if you're gonna get repeat business. Unless you're dealing with big people, but big property, people don't tend to get divorced that often, perhaps once every 10 years. So you've got to be very good, or have lots and lots of potential, or find work where you can sort of, which is very difficult if you're doing contentious work. It's hard.

Robert Craven  28:38

So what you're saying it's not what you do. It's how you do it.

Jeremy 'JJ' Jacobs  28:45

Yeah. We could probably finish on that, Robert. Well, there was a lot more if you so wish, but basically, yes, yeah.

Robert Craven  28:54

Okay. So one of the things that I've been kind of struggling with recently is, most agencies are what I call farmers, they kind of think that they can get away with giving people coffee, waiting, having chats, and the work will come to them eventually. It's the easy way of doing it. There's no confrontation. But there's also an argument that says you could be a hunter rather than the farmer. \What was your position about sort of hunting for business rather than farming?

Jeremy 'JJ' Jacobs  29:19

Well, I've always been a bit of a hunter. So I've always picked up the phone and done this. It's just in the DNA. It depends what business you're in, and what you're talking about. I think what I would go on to say and where people get it wrong, which will come on to my other areas of interest is that there is a big difference between selling to existing clients and selling to new clients. There's a subtle difference and your approach has to be different, which we'll talk about in a minute. But the point So as you whether you're hunting, you can hunt and you can be a beaver farmer as well. But when you're selling, if you like, to an existing client, you know, you gotta ask the right things, you got to find out why they bought your product in the first place, is it meeting expectations. As a lovely guy I know who sells he's in IT support. And the amount of support work he gives throughout the contracts with his clients is superb. Where they're gonna go next, what's coming down the line and he does look after them. Oh, by the way, Jeremy, you likely know that this is coming from Microsoft, or this new bit of the cloud is opening up. And he's just very, very proactive about how he does that. So I would still call that hunting, you could say it's farming, depending on your approach, but it's probably a bit of both. But who's gonna get the business when the contract due for renewal is what you put in the previous two or three years in the contract. And I guess it's the same with probably, you know, with digital agencies as well, with the SEO and so on. How has it worked out? how productive you being? It's a bit like, go back in your car salesman? You know, if you've had a Range Rover for two or three years, I would expect you to call every three or four months. Mr. Craven, how's it coming? You know, oh, by the way, we can you know, you can have this extra party wanted, you know. So it's about looking after your people in the right way. Brand new business is something else. Again, you are the disrupter. And with a disrupter, it's hard. This is what I own. This goes back to my other pillar of what the sales Rainmaker is all about. Your biggest threat, your biggest objection is something called the status quo bias, which we all have in us. And the status quo bias is something I suppose if you were to explain it to the average chap on the street, it is well, if it ain't fixed, why change it or not break, don't fix. But it is a very complicated part of our brains. It comes at you in various ways, which you know about Robert, Oh, you're too expensive, you're too cheap, we have one of yours before. We've just bought one. They're just excuses. And their excuses because in your disrupting mode, you're not giving enough contrast and enough reason to them to even consider making a change. So I go back to your earlier points. As a disrupter, you have to show differentiation and contrast and innovate passion and a knowledge about those clients to a very high level, and communicate successfully.

Robert Craven  32:51

So new customers need your new customers. So there's probably an incumbent there already, ah, stage status quo, you know, no one ever got sacked for buying IBM, new, high risk, but others who, maybe we'll come back to you next year, when budgets look better. . And you're saying that all those objections are simply because you walk because you've not given them a reason to move on, you've not demonstrated.

Jeremy 'JJ' Jacobs  33:26

I mean, there are genuine objections based on what the customer generally feels. But more often than not, it's a put off and put down and a go away like a flyer or something, you know, you have to have a compelling reason for people to sit up and listen to you. And that's the point I'm making. Now you can do that, through innovation. And maybe, again, it depends on the marketplace you're in, if you're in the SAS space, for example, and you've got a new bit of software coming out and it's coming in at x premium per month or something. And it does things 10 times better than the incumbent, then you got it, you know, you got a chance. But, you know, with products being so commoditized it's not always easy to make that differentiation. But again, the individual salesperson, if they've done their work correctly, if they've done their research correctly, and they hit someone with a compelling reason, not by cold email on my ad, necessarily, then you got a chance of getting an audience. I'm not saying you'll be successful, but at least you can get to quote that old phrase and get a foot in the door. Different approach, you are there to disrupt the status quo bias as an account executive, looking after clients, you're there to reinforce the status quo bias. Different thing, different approach.

Robert Craven  34:57

I Yeah. Really interesting idea that you're there to disrupt the status quo. I hadn't kind of seen it that way. I mean, my simple world has always said, If you don't make the sale, it's either because you've got a rubbish product or you're rubbish at selling.

Jeremy 'JJ' Jacobs  35:15

Is one way of looking at it. Yeah, but a bit unfair. I mean, going back to the old days, when under sort of knocking on doors trying to sell photocopiers, and you got this thing called a rank Xerox 3100, or a rank Xerox 4000, you come along with something else. I mean, we're doing it the whole time. But I think, you know, Xerox, there was such, but the differentiation was so big. And between products, you're talking electromechanical compared to sort of solid state electronics and looking rather funky. And so in some respects, the transition wasn't so difficult for clients. But I think you can do that nowadays, because products are completely different. Those things obviously, that conversation relationally slightly, but you know, that's where we were, but that was so disrupting fun and new businesses great. But again, you gotta have the right product at the right price.

Robert Craven  36:13

So do you have a curiosity to know, do you have a we're gonna go back to this kind of idea, almost of a playbook. I know, you don't like it. But, you know, there's this thing about, you know, trial closes, false closes, semi trial closes. And so on and so forth. Do you just think that's all a load of nonsense and what you should be doing talking person to person?

Jeremy 'JJ' Jacobs  36:47

There are two things or two terms in sales, which I think should be banned. The first one is the USP unique, so unique selling proposition, there is no such thing. I'm happy to be told otherwise. There are no unique products in particular, as far as I'm concerned. And the other one is this wonderful thing called closing, which you're taught as a young salesperson, ah, you need to learn the 10 top closers, Jeremy, they are the trial goes, you know, the Winston Churchill balance sheet clothes, the old My dear mother clothes, the alternative clothes. And, you know, you're so wound up in manipulating a client into signing contracts, you forgetting about everything else now. We're in 2020. Business people, even those under the age of 45, or 40, are inured to sales techniques from the 1970s 80s and 90s. They're not interested. So that's one thing. And people are aware of what the world has moved on. Customers, as we discussed before we came on air, are much more savvy about what they want, and how they want to be spoken to and sold to. So closing, if you think about it as absurd, how can you close a deal? Closing actually, you're actually opening a brand new business relationship unless, if you're selling commoditized products, you're still opening a relationship not closing anything. Gone are the days of the of the salesman selling encyclopaedias and, you know, giving you as much as our old friend Jeff butcher, so you know, you know, a three hour guarantee because why three hours will be 50 miles away, because in case something goes wrong, you know, those days have gone you can't do that anymore. You have to treat people with respect and this is why there are 7 and 14 day cooling off periods for certain products. Return if you're unhappy, and we have other sites for other things so it's a question of, as I said to you before, or being of service to the clients and making sure that they're happy and nobody wants to have buyer's remorse. You know, sometimes it happens because sometimes things aren't always perfect, but you just the worst thing you want is to have things which don't work. Or in the case of your digital agency. We've been trying assessing you SEO lot now for six weeks and nothing's happening, you know. Things have to work.

Robert Craven  39:39

What you're talking about is a traditional approach, traditional values, traditional philosophy? It's about respect. It's about slowing down. It's not about the five, what six or the six this is or the seven steps, it's just about human to human. I guess the next question then becomes I get that, Can that be done it? Even a small scale, if that makes sense? Soyou've got a team of three or four people in the sales team, can we have them each going out doing their own thing in different ways? Or does it need to be a kind of a, this is how you do something X, Y, Zed company?

Jeremy 'JJ' Jacobs  40:48

I think you have a blend, you've got to have a sales process, you've got to have rules. And you've got to try and find out. And you had to go at things in a certain way. I'm not saying, again, I'm just about to write a quarter vituperative review of a sales book where someone's put out one of these five ways of doing it, and 16 ways of doing this and all the rest of it. And, you know, one person's logic, there's not another person's logic, along show you're doing the groundwork, and you're doing the basics well, and you're covering all points, it doesn't really matter whether you're sort of making 27 calls a day, or 35 is not about getting absolute numbers for the sake of it. What's important is having a thorough sort of grip on the client shorts that you've identified as being the best prospects. You haven't mentioned the playbook. Everybody's penny drop moment is different in their lives. And it's the same for companies too. And the reason why there isn't a book saying, you know, the sales might Rainmaker guide to the trial close, because it's just, it's looking at selling for the wrong end of the telescope. It's about the client, the clients aren't interested in trial closes, or 16 methods or cold calling or hot calling, you know, they want to know how you're thinking about how your product or service is going to solve a problem for them. That's all they need to know. All they need to know.

Robert Craven  42:26

That phrase to me is looking at it through the Rhine at the telescope, because most people are being rewarded by the number of sales or the size of the sale or the number of clients, they've got to look at a chart with KPIs and targets. And they're thinking, if I can just get three more clients through the door by the end of the month, I'll get my bonus, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.So what's your view, then on those kinds of rewards strategies?

Jeremy 'JJ' Jacobs  43:02

I think we're okay. Although a good mate of mine who ran a furniture business in the Midlands. Some years ago, he just stopped our commission and everybody's bonuses were all lumped together. So it was a total sort of team effort. Now, in particular, I think there are places where you can still do that. I personally wouldn't like it. But I think you have to incentivize people. The problem that we have, Robert, in his country is that we have things called accountants, and accountants operate on a short term of three months or one month basis. So everything comes from sites. So you have to try and find a way of rewarding people which fits in with what you know, the UK accounting methodology and what's right for the stakeholders compared to your bonuses. So again, I go back people, you just got to find that balance. But again, if you think long term, and hopefully short term issues like the bumpy ride at the end of the quarter, or when you have pandemics can be smoothed out a little bit. I don't know. I think there's quite a big field. That's a bit of a minefield that you're opening there but certainly it's an issue.

Robert Craven  44:25

Well, why nearly nine times nearly up question for me that's always the million dollar question but the one that's always fascinates me is you take out your son in law, cousin, whoever it is, there aren't professional service firm you take that for me I have a few bottles of wine you have some brand is if you drink if they drink, you're coming out of the restaurant, and they say to you so What would you do for me? They're looking for your kind of pearls of wisdom. They're looking for your one liner, they're looking for your philosophy. And if you'd have been drinking, you wag your finger at them and say, if I was you, wagging your finger around all over.What are your one liners?

Jeremy 'JJ' Jacobs  45:22

Boy, you see you fit it there on the heads. You know, I'm not you, and you're not me, and everybody has different ways of going about things. As I mentioned earlier, one person's logic is not another person's logic. Who are you to tell me sort of thing? Depending on it, I can go back to those four problem areas losing money at the back of the back door, not finding clients, not offering value. And not when you get business. Don't I'm not saying you should never discount but I'm saying don't give money away. Compromise, always leave money on the table. You know, the obvious number one statement is if you can't sell, you haven't got a business and as simple as that. So you've got to find ways of selling more effectively. But if you offer value, you won't need a comp, you won't need a discount as much. I'm saying that in very broad terms now. And yeah, if you get the more value you offer, okay, the more value you offer, the less likelihood is that you are the more likely it is you can sell things at a higher price. Don't look at discounting. But always give people a choice. I mean, We've all been to these cartons, these not car showrooms, we've done it already. We've been to the car cleaning place, you know, where do you want the gold clean, silver clean or the bronze clean? Again, depending on the business, give Cliff clients an option, but not too many options. Try and do that. But again, I can't give you a one fits all situation answer because there is no one fits all answer. All I do know is that the more contrast you have, and the more effort you put in, the more successful you will be. There is no magic bullet.

Robert Craven  47:29

I'm just writing that down. So the more contrast you have, the more effort you put in, the more successful you'll be.

Jeremy 'JJ' Jacobs  47:36

Yeah, I think that's a reasonable thing to say.

Robert Craven  47:41

And there is no one size fits all.

Jeremy 'JJ' Jacobs  47:43

Now, because as I mentioned before, everybody's penny drop moment is different. And sometimes below 25 Sometimes people get it at 45 years of age. Some people never get it.

Robert Craven  47:56

I love the idea of a penny drop moment. Just fascinating. Just another minute. I've been working with an agency, which is 70 people strong, 80 people strong. And they've implemented a sales process all 70 people have gone through. So everyone has gone through the these are the questions you asked this is when you ask them, this is how you do this as a jeweller. So they've kind of got this drill that you know whether you're that high, or that high, whether you're this or that or whatever it is. You've got your process, and it does feel that on the one hand, processes work. Yeah, that's why we love having checklists. And I'm really grateful that my surgeon last year had a checklist and wasn't going to be creative. And I'm really glad when I go in an aeroplane that the pilot doesn't think of a creative way of landing. And what I'll do, I'll try doing this with my eyes shot. So we need processes and systems, look they've got to have the flex in them to work with the person in front of you. Brilliant. I love that. I absolutely love that. And I love the idea of I've never heard that phrase a penny drop moment. I absolutely adore that. That's brilliant. Jeremy, thank you very much. Your view really, really interesting. I've been writing notes of the three sides of notes, because I think it's kind of really, really refreshing after all the books with the 27 ways and the money back guarantee is it's refreshing to have a common sense approach to how you can make sales. So on that note, I'm gonna say thank you very, very much for being a great guest.

Jeremy 'JJ' Jacobs  49:48

Thank you, Robert. Catch up with you very soon.