The Power Of Customer Experience with Jo Boswell
In this GYDA Talks, Janusz talks to Jo Boswell of Sentio-B. Jo specialises in customer experience innovation and transformation, with particular expertise in helping organisations work out how to use their customer data, insight and technology to develop a customer mindset and drive customer experience improvements along with achieving the organisational and cultural change to become more customer centric and unlock business value.
Janusz and Jo discuss what is customer experience really, how it can help businesses (the power of it), why it differs from 'client services' (the rational piece), the power of emotions and how it can help with sales and customer retention.
Transcription:
Janusz Stabik 00:06
Welcome to Jo Boswell.
Jo Boswell 00:08
Thank you Janusz. Good to be here.
Janusz Stabik 00:11
Good to have you here. So we're gonna be talking about customer experience today. And before we dive into that, do you want to do a quick intro to let the audience know who you are and what you do and who you do it for?
Jo Boswell 00:20
Absolutely. So I spent a 27 year career actually with British Airways, where I worked in a variety of roles, but probably from a very early stage in that career, had a lot of interest in customer experience and had a fantastic opportunity to learn from some of the best leaders in customer experience. And in particular, Sir Colin Marshall, later, Lord Marshall, who was very instrumental at really re-energising the whole British Airways ethos around customer centricity. And I led a big initiative towards the latter part of my career, that introduced quite a lot of improvement in the end to end customer experience, which essentially was all around how the airline could harness data and technology to really deliver that much more joined up customer conversation across all of the digital and physical touch points in, in the customer experience. And at the end of that, that big programme, I was sort of thinking, Well, what next, really, for me and my career, and having spent quite a bit of time, trying to learn from other organisations, whilst I've been a BA leading that that challenge and seeing who I could learn from, I felt that actually, there was a gap in the market for people providing coaching and mentoring for leaders, customer experience leaders who are in that kind of situation. And so, in 2017, I left British Airways, and I'm now running my own business. I'm coaching and mentoring, customer experience leaders, helping them translate their ambition and, and their strategies, really into tangible business results.
Janusz Stabik 02:23
I think that's an awesome service. So I mean, the reason we're speaking is, so I do a lot of all my work with agencies, creative agencies, digital agencies, customer service, customer experience, rather, is one of those words like, strategy. I think this is often used, but often misunderstood. And I think there's a bit of a gap with agencies in how they have engaged in interacting with their customers. What does customer experience mean?
Jo Boswell 02:58
Yeah, well, it's interesting, because I think you're so right to highlight that misunderstanding, and I see a lot of that about, I see people talking about customer service, and describe, you know, calling it customer experience, when in fact, what they're talking about are those service interactions. So in essence, customer experience is really the sum of every single interaction that a client would have with, with your organisation and with your brand. And so the experience really, ultimately is how you as a, as a client are made to feel and how you, you kind of think and respond to, to that brand as a result of all of those interactions. And one of the one of the challenges, obviously, is that oftentimes, the interactions are managed by different parts of the organisation, sometimes in different channels. And so so many organisations, I think, find it incredibly difficult to find a way to create that joined up customer conversation, where, you know, everybody kind of knows what's happened previously, or they're able to reflect what the current context is, in terms of, you know, what, what that customer has just experienced and what they might be trying to do at this next interaction. And I think it's an interesting concept, because if you think about it, you know, your small local business has understood the importance of customer experience for decades, if not centuries, but increasingly because there are some big global brands who are succeeding at recreating that kind of local business feel, but on a much greater scale. I think customer expectations are that every brand and every sector, any industry sector should be able to do the same. So I think the challenge that we have these days is that customer expectations are sort of increased exponentially. There's been this increased blurring across different sectors and channels. And frankly, a lot of organisations, I think I'm really struggling to kind of keep up with that level of expectation.
Janusz Stabik 05:25
So you mentioned a really interesting word, they said, it's the way the customer feels. So if I'm an agency owner, why should I care? Right, because I can deliver a great service, my clients pay me some money. And, there's a value exchange, and we give them something back, and they receive results that satisfy their objectives. Why is it important that I care how they feel?
Jo Boswell 05:55
Well, I think that the reason that it's important is that actually, it can be the source of true differentiation, and the kind of differentiation that is a lot harder actually, for your competitors to replicate. And you just have to think about it from your own perspective and think about, you know, those brands that you remain loyal to, and actually that you might be a little more forgiving of, even when things go wrong. And it is those brands that are able to kind of make you feel a little bit more special, and recognise that, you know, where they're being proactive at managing the experience and making it an easy one, and memorable one for you. So, you know, I think there is real value to be had in that kind of emotional loyalty that can be created, out of the way you make a customer feel, that can turn them into a more enduring fan of yours, of your brand and of your service. And can also make them an advocate of what you do. So I mean, you know, one example that I always give, because I've banked with them, you know, I think since the mid 90s, is first direct, and, and that is absolutely around the way they are able to, you know, constantly improve on their customer experience. But you know, every time I interact with them, you know, personally, you know, talk to calling the contact centre, you know, they're just great at showing empathy. And it feels like, it doesn't feel like an interaction with a financial brand, it feels much more human. And that's created an emotional loyalty, that means that I overlook all sorts of offers from other brands, who could probably give me a very similar offering, and save me money, you know, by switching my current account, but I'm just not going to do that. Because I have that emotional attachment to first direct.
Janusz Stabik 08:03
I think I need to switch banks, because I certainly don't feel that way. About my bank, I will look for look at first director to go for. You mentioned, you know, I think it's so important. And there's a huge gap with a lot of agencies and that, you know, we're living in a digital age, right? So all of our communication, a lot of a lot of the inbound lead and inbound inquiry process is digital. It's done online, and we email. And then we were fixated by the logo of the brand, right? So we see our clients as the logo. And if the client is first direct, it's Hey, we're working with first direct, and we forget a lot of the times I think they're human to human interaction in that, who we're actually working with is Sarah, Sarah's got a dog. And she's homeschooling and she's a bit of stress. She's going through all this kind of stuff, and we lose that kind of human to human interaction. We forget about the feelings.
Jo Boswell 09:02
And people buy from people.
Janusz Stabik 09:06
Absolutely, absolutely. What can we do? How can we positively change that situation into a positive? What kinds of things can we do to make clients feel better?
Jo Boswell 09:16
I think it's really interesting, the fact that you've highlighted all of the digital interactions, you know, because so often that is the first step. But interestingly, I mean, so often, you know, there are some really, really strong signals that come from those digital interactions. So I think actually, the very first step is to think about how you as an organisation, as a brand that is offering a service, how can you tap into all of those customer signals? So it is all about you know, absolutely listening to your customer, and, and trying to understand their current context and what it is that they're trying to do and picking up on all of those kinds of little digital signals as well as you know, potential physical, physical signals. I think the second thing then is, is thinking about how you can use that insight more intelligently, to start to tailor every interaction to make it more relevant. Or even to start to kind of predict what might be next or, you know, what's the next sort of most useful thing that you, you might be able to do for that client. So that is starting to think about what that customer journey looks like, what are all the different steps in that journey and kind of really putting yourself into the customer's shoes and seeing it from their perspective, and then thinking about how the information that you have about that customer can help you to really tailor the experience at that, at that point in time. So, you know, I sort of think of it as a very simple framework, it's to listen, and then orchestrate. And and in particular, if you have a number of sort of different entities within within the agency that are going to be interacting with that customer, how can you pull that knowledge, you know, so in effect, everybody has got that same kind of collective understanding, and then can act on the, you know, the insights to, you know, to really kind of personalise or make, make the customer feel special at that, at that particular interaction and make the experience more memorable as a result.
Janusz Stabik 11:48
Yeah, I've got in my head, I don't know if this is the right way to think about it, you know, a mental model of a brain and on one side is rational. One side is emotion, and the customer journey. And let's say it's 10 steps. And some of those steps are, require a rational status for satisfaction, it's maybe we need a report, or a report or is the service that we receive back, but the other interactions, we've got opportunities, I think, to tickle and excite the emotions of our clients, and like I say, to nurture, nurture the feeling and give them the kind of positive experience from that interaction.
Jo Boswell 12:21
Absolutely. And also, I mean, in projecting yourself into the client's shoes, you know, think about what the emotional needs state is at those different stages. Because I think, you know, very often we sort of think about customer journeys as very functional things. And, you know, what's the functional need that's being met? But actually, if you tap into, you know, what's the, what's the emotional need to stay? What's the right point in time, actually, for that kind of communications, I mean, to give an example, I remember at British Airways, when we were starting to sort of think about how to create that ongoing customer dialogue, we looked at, actually, what's the best point in time to be sending a marketing email to inspire our customers, you know, next holiday booking? Well, it's actually the day they get back from their existing holiday. Because the time that you're, you know, suppose you're probably most susceptible, you know, to wanting to book the next holiday is when you're sort of suffering that, that kind of emotional trough of, Oh, it's my first day back at work, you know, I need I need to book some more Holiday.
Janusz Stabik 13:32
Timing is key, I had this horror story of that going wrong. Well, in well intended, I think it was, I'm not gonna mention the brand name, a huge DIY chain, that many of us go to when we start a DIY job, and we need a tool or something and they'd automated some emails to offer 5% off or 10% of greenhouse greenhouses or, or conservatives have something at the point in which the customer just purchased a very expensive greenhouse or conservatory. So after they've made this 10 grand purchase.
Jo Boswell 14:10
That just comes back to you know, that the signals are all there, you know, that yeah, that signal was there in the data, they could have very easily, you know, suppressed people that have just spent a huge amount of money on a green from that.
Janusz Stabik 14:23
Yeah. Yeah, where I see this being really powerful for agencies, I think is the sales cycle in particular, where many agencies take on clients who have been with another agency previously, and they've grown frustrated in the service. So their emotional state of mind is one of frustration, you know, and protect, and potentially, I've been burned three or four times and I've got to go through this process again. So it's initially frustration but apprehension, probably weary absolutely. And then moving into positivity. You're like, Hey, I like what you have to say. And then we sign the contract, and then we get kind of buyer's remorse, you know, because it's a big risky purchase or emotion, you know, we've asked that feeling very risky, and that the interactions that we have with clients throughout that cycle need to be very different kind of accommodate those different states of mind.
Jo Boswell 15:14
And you need Yes, you need to ensure that actually the very next thing is that happening post signing up, all reinforcing. This was the right, you know, right decision to make and providing that reassurance to the client.
Janusz Stabik 15:29
Yeah, so you mentioned a minute ago about one of the benefits, I think, retention, and they can kind of, perhaps, increase longevity, increase lifetime value, bias and mistakes, I think, I think you said, it can buy by as some mistakes afford or some mistake.
Jo Boswell 15:51
Yeah, I think definitely. So the way, you know, the way you respond to, you know, a mistake, obviously, is critical in that, but I think that, you know, generally, I mean, if you, you know, if you think about your local restaurant, where, you know, they kind of really put their arms around you, every time you go in there, you know, you probably keep going there, not because it's necessarily, you know, the best value or even the best food, but actually, they make you feel special. And on the one occasion that, you know, I don't know, the meal is served up, and, you know, perhaps it's not quite to your liking or whatever. You know, that doesn't sort of become the overriding thing that you remember, because actually the sum of all of your other interactions, you know, with that, with that local restaurant mean, that actually you're going to be more forgiving, of when those things go wrong. But clearly, you know, that is very much predicated on how you respond, as, you know, to your client, when those things do go wrong. So it is it is about being able to demonstrate, firstly, empathy, you know, you, you have to really reflect that you understand their perspective and their point of view, and then you have to be able to make it right, and the ability to resolve the issue, you know, really is what can make you stand out from from the crowd. And, you know, I remember back to my, to my days at ba interestingly, we used to find that, where we had a customer, a customer issue that had been recovered, well, actually, the satisfaction scores tended to be higher than where, you know, the whole journey had gone sort of swimmingly, and nothing had gone wrong. So, you know, spectacular recovery, it's not saying kind of plan to fail, and then recover spectacularly. But, you know, the way you respond actually can have a really big difference and can be a key element in that, in that end to end experience.
Janusz Stabik 18:01
So I have a very first hand experience of that. And I like the fact that you use the restaurant analogy, because my experience was it with the restaurant. And I forgive. I might have told this story in a previous interview. So I forgive those people who've already seen this. I heard this, but my wife and I went for a meal in Bristol, a restaurant Chain, a small hotel Chain that we really, really like. Our table was delayed, so I was not ready for another 20 minutes. Please, please sit down and have a drink. The drink never came. We got to take him through to the table. We can have a drink. Please take another 20 minutes. So it's 40 minutes now. It took 15 minutes for the menus to arrive. The menu arrived, we placed the order and took an order for 45 minutes for the first course to arrive and we had no basket of bread or anything. So we're I think we're an hour and a half in before we received any food and an hour in before we received the drink.We're all a little bit frustrated. I remember my wife had split, she had spinach and the spinach they hadn't washed the spinach. So it was really sandy. And then they brought the drink over and in this split the glass of wine over my wife. It was an absolute disaster from start to finish. And the maitre d came over with his head in his hands. And he said, Oh, my God, I'm so sorry. We've absolutely messed this up. What a terrible experience. You know, here's a bottle of champagne. Of course, your meal tonight is honourable. Please come back on Saturday or next Saturday with a couple of friends and you know, will you get another meal on Earth and a bottle of champagne, we'll put you in the private room. We left that bad experience, you know, the worst meal ever? We left as advocates, and we promoted them and told everybody about this great experience that we had. But on paper it was, you know, shocking.
Jo Boswell 20:00
You can turn a negative into a positive, I think very, very easily through, you know, that proactive resolution. Absolutely agree. I've got loads of examples like that.
Janusz Stabik 20:16
That's the top tip you should take away
Jo Boswell 20:19
You can be the best restaurant in the neighbourhood. But if you're not making your customers feel really special, and they kind of walk out going well, yeah, it was a lovely meal. But it's quite pricey. You know, I think that doesn't, that doesn't necessarily create that same kind of emotional attachment. So it is, it is about really turning the loyalty into something that's much more emotional rather than transactional. Because otherwise you're just tempted to kind of go, Yeah, you know, it's good. But you know, it's quite pricey.
Janusz Stabik 20:52
Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, I remember we went travelling around Italy a few years ago, we ended up in Naples, we had a really, really young family. And we'd heard about this pizza restaurant, I think it's called Michaels, maybe a really famous, really basic restaurant, which just makes, you know, awesome pieces. So the same recipe has been the same for 100 years. And it was chucking it down with rain, I think we'd been to Pompeii. We took it down with rain, we arrived at the restaurant, there was a queue of about 50-60 people, and they were handing out raffle tickets to the people in the queue and we're under our umbrellas. And they saw that we had kids and the you know, the, the Italian kind of waiter kind of Caesars, and he kind of parts the crowd, like the Red Sea, and kind of causes through and, you know, sits us down creates a table for us next to the pizza oven and drives us off. And, and it was just, it's such a simple restaurant. But what an experience, you know, we were, we felt loved. And I've told that story, I must have sent 50 people there, because that experience was so good. I can't remember if the pizza was any good, but the experience was, was just so awesome.Who should be doing this? So whose responsibility is it? Or who is best placed within a business to lead the charge on customer experience?
Jo Boswell 22:15
That's a great question. And I see, you know, a lot of obsession going on, in the inner kind of customer experience industry, if you like around, you know, what's the optimal organisation? And, you know, what, what should the job title be? And, you know, and actually, you know, should it be called customer experience or experience management? And does the employee experience should that be involved in it as well, and so on, you know, and there's kind of, you know, there's, there's a lot of debate around it. But ultimately, for me, you know, the only place is ever really going to come together as with the CEO. So I think the first thing is that it is about establishing that culture and mindset, as a leader in the business, that's got to come from the owner, the MD, the CEO. And then to be honest, I don't think it really matters who then is really leading that charge, the reality is that the only way it can be delivered will be with really great collaboration across the organisation. So I sort of think you have to enter it with that mindset of, you know, the behaviours need to be demonstrated. And if we say, we really care about the customer, you know, is everybody role modeling those behaviours, and that, you know, that has to come from the top down, otherwise, people will quickly sort of see that it's empty words. And then I think it's about you know, whoever, whoever is best placed to lead that charge, to encourage the right kind of collaboration around the customer to get everybody on the same page around, you know, a single planning framework for what the customer journey is, and what data needs to be used to sort of really understanding and just create a bit of, you know, internal governance, around the different initiatives and how they can be tracked. So, you know, I'm not at all hung up on what the organisation should be, it's much more around the behaviours, and the collaboration and and how to drive that kind of customer centric thinking.
Janusz Stabik 24:30
Yeah, yeah. Okay. So start from the top. It's a big cultural change. I'm a huge fan of and you might say, this is a terrible way to do it. Please let me know. There is a workshop exercise called the Anti problem. And a lot of my clients kind of get stuck. Trying to think of what the optimal experience is, is really hard to define when we've never set that standard before. We've never really experienced it. But as humans, we're pretty good particularly as Brits, right. And having a bit of a winter mode, we often think of the negative. So to map out the interactions, and I use an agency example, a customer finds a website, finds a phone number, or fills in a form, gets in touch, has a call with you, puts a proposal together, maybe a pitch, and then they get on board. They map out those interactions, and then map out everything that can possibly go wrong. You know, what's the worst case scenario, each of those stages, can't find the phone number, the website is down, there's typos, takes three hours for somebody to get back to me. Somebody picks up the phone and says, Hello, rather than, you know, map out all those terrible interactions, and then you kind of flip it, reverse it and say, Okay, what's the exception for each of these interactions? And it just gives us that framework against which we can then think of what good looks like, but it involves mapping out the journey.
Jo Boswell 25:55
Yeah. And that's what you're describing is very much about sort of identifying what the pain points might be. And then removing those little points of friction. And, you know, I mean, absolutely, I think of customer experiences as the four P's. It's not the marketing ones, you know, it's about personalization. So is it tailored? You know, because I'm not interested in one size fits all? Is it predictive? So, you know, are they trying to anticipate my needs? Is it pain free? So you know, there's little points of friction being removed? And is it productive? Does it save me time?
Janusz Stabik 26:31
I love that. That's really super simple. I like that a lot. Okay, we're gonna think, think about wrapping up. I'm going to ask you, what's your top tip? What's the, you know, if there's one thing that this audience could do? Perhaps one thing that can get them started on the customer experience journey? You know, is there a catalyst or something that they can implement just to improve the customer experience for their current customers? What might it be?
Jo Boswell 27:07
I think I would say very, it's very much about the leadership skills and demonstrating that customer centricity. So I would say, to anybody listening, what is that one thing that you can do to role model customer centric thinking? What would that change be?
Janusz Stabik 27:27
Nice and easy. Thanks, Joe. It's been an absolute pleasure having you. We should write up and distribute your four Ps model. I think that's a really, really powerful kind of framework for the audience to be thinking about. Joe Boswell from Sentio-B, thank you very much.
