Video - Robert Craven and Ben Potter Discuss New Business Development

VIDEO: 52:18 mins

AUTHOR: Robert Craven and Ben Potter

In this New Business discussion, Robert talks to Ben Potter. Ben helps agencies to win the right clients. He is a mentor for agency owners and business development managers.

Ben and Robert share insight into:

• How to get more clients

• Why agencies struggle with getting new clients

• Culture, attention and focus

• Silver Bullet approaches don’t work

• Referrals, Farming, Hunting

• Examples of what works – closing the gap

• The future of business development

• Taking ownership of business development

• Executing the right things at the right time

• Keeping the tap running on your sales pipeline

• Getting your positioning piece nailed

 To connect with Ben on LinkedIn Click Here.

Transcription:

Robert Craven 00:27

Hello, and welcome to the guided talks. And today, I am absolutely delighted to have Ben Potter and Potter you can almost put in the middle name is business development. And I have a suspicion that there's a headline for what we're going to talk about today. It's going to be how to make business development. Not easy, but easier. So hello, Ben.

Ben Porter 00:51

Hello, how are we?

Robert Craven 00:52

Well, I think we're great. We're really good. really delighted to have you with us today. So…

Ben Porter 00:57

Thank you very much delighted to be here.

Robert Craven 00:59

Let's go straight into it. So can you briefly describe Ben Potter? For people who don't know the thing that is Ben Potter.

Ben Porter 01:06

The thing that has been positive? That sounds very, very grand. So yeah, I help agencies with the right clients. Ultimately, that is my job. I emphasise the word, right, because I think too many agencies and clients aren't well matched for very different reasons. But my job is to really go in and work with often the agency owners on putting in place the necessary frameworks, processes and skills. So they can make business development easier. Not easy, as you said, but certainly easier by the end of that time together.

Robert Craven 01:42

So are you a consultant? Coach, are you

Ben Porter 01:49

The official title is mentor, I purposely avoided the word coach, because having read up on it and read one or two books, I think coaching is a very specific skill of which arguably, I don't quite yet have I, whether there's a difference between coaching and mentoring, I'm not entirely sure, but it is a word I avoided but I tend to be working with agency owners, but often I'll also be working with junior to mid level BDMS. And that's where it probably is more of a mentor type relationship.

Robert Craven 02:19

So I guess let's start with the end in mind. So how did you do it? How did you get to 2020? What is your very potted history?

Ben Porter 02:31

Just very positive, very positive history.

Robert Craven 02:33

We can understand where you've come from to be doing that now.

Ben Porter 02:37

Yeah. I studied at Martin University, I only tell this story because it is relevant to where I'm at today. I remember last year, Elektra turned around to all of us and said 75% of you in this room will go into sales when no bloody way we'll all be doing creative marketing roles. Lo and behold, a few months later, I'm in a recruitment job doing sales. And if I look at all of my mates that are in university that time, they're all in sales roles in some form or another. So it started out there. I was lucky in that I moved down to Brighton about 2003 from Hartford cheer, metallurgical, Rosie, she set up an agency when she was four months pregnant. I looked at her and thought that was a good idea. And the rest, as they say, is history. So during the 13 or 14 years that we ran that agency, whilst my job title was commercial director, what that really meant was this development, so I learned an awful lot about what works, what doesn't, I made an awful lot of mistakes over that time. And at the end of that, around about three years ago, we sold off part of the agency to another business in Brighton and that was the opportune time for me to reconsider where I wanted to go next. And since that time, I've been consulting, mentoring, coaching, whatever we're gonna call that. So yeah, that was just over three years ago. And here I am still paying the bills. There's still a roof over the head. So it seems to be going okay.

Robert Craven 04:05

Okay, so let's just get on with it. So our audience, our primary audience is digital agency. We also get a lot of people who are agents of what I call agency folk, but not as far as estate agents.

Ben Porter 04:18

Okay.

Robert Craven 04:21

So it's kind of that branding piece. And there's always Yeah, I think there's a lot we all have in common. The $6 million dollar question, the thing that drives me totally bonkers.

Ben Porter 04:33

Yes.

Robert Craven 04:35

I think you know what this is why do agencies struggle with business development?

Ben Porter 04:42

Hmm.

Robert Craven 04:45

I mean, it's number one on our Facebook group piece. Yeah, that 100 people? Yeah. What is it you want to know more about more sales? What do you want to know about that development? What do you want to know about? Why can't we get more better customers with that? Before we went online, I just had a really big, important workshop and everyone from Ogilvy. They're all there and their Versace stuff. And I thought, my PowerPoint deck is useless. We won't use the PowerPoint deck. We'll go back. Yeah. What is it you want to know about? So what is it you want to know about? I want to put it up on the flip chart. And these guys and gals with the multi million multi billion pound agencies into national global intergalactic? What did they all want to know? How do we get more better clients? So come on, tell me why do agencies struggle with business development.

Ben Porter 05:42

In my, in my experience, having now obviously worked in agencies and now works alongside dozens of agencies in the last kind of two or three years, I tend to find it comes down to three or four things fairly consistently across the board. I think it's a cultural thing. It's often about the agency owners and their understanding or lack of understanding and appreciation of what actually business development means in today's world. And I don't think it's given or it's very, very rare that I find is given the same level of attention as other areas of the agency. So agencies love to make sure the service offering is great, and the operations are good, and they've got the finances nailed down, etc, etc, you will know that as well as I, and they put a lot of time and attention into that. I don't think it's I think it's particularly rare to find the same level of attention given to business development and marketing. Everyone's wrapped that wrap that together.

Robert Craven 06:41

So, culture and attention. So typically, five person agency, I'm working with a 28 person full service agency at the moment. They have just taken on their first business development person. Okay. 25 people? Yeah. What about two and a half million turnover? Gorgeous, lovely work. Fantastic. And when you say to them, so what's the strategy for getting customers? And they actually said to me, actually, Robert, it's really interesting, just when it goes really quiet, then the phone rings, right? Why not a strategy that is just hoping is not a method? Absolutely. So yes. And attention and focus, that's

Ben Porter 07:32

I think that what tends to result is that often, agency owners will jump from fix to fix to fix the classic kind of silver bullet, well, we'll go and try a bit of that, oh, that didn't work. Now, let's go and try a bit of that, or that didn't work. And that can also extend actually to bringing in a BDM. I think often they are seen as the solution. There you go stick him in the corner, there's the telephone book, there's the PC, and the sales will start flowing in. And I think the reality is, it doesn't work that way. For me, it's very much a team effort. So there is that kind of cultural thing of we are all in this, we can all play a part. But I think it's quite rare to find that. So there's definitely something in that. I think positioning, I think we are going to no doubt talk about this in more depth later on. Depending on what you read, there are 20,000 - 30,000, maybe 35,000 agencies of various sizes and guises in the UK. And if you look at them, as you will see, they pretty much all look and sound the same. From a buyer's point of view, where do you where do you possibly start? So I think we operate in what is fast becoming, if not, is already a highly commoditized market. So I think there's a piece around positioning, how do you define an audience? How do you stand out? How do you attract the right kind of work, as well as if you're going out to find it be more focused and targeted in how you do that. And in that, I think there is a lack of productivity with respect to actually going out and making stuff happen. Of course, all of these things are tied together there. If you don't know who your ideal client is, how do you know where to start and reaching them? So they're all They're all interconnected? I think the final thing is how do we actually manage a lead when we get through the door? I think we are at the mercy of client processes. You know, they say jump, or they say they say job, we say how high is a failure to try and influence or control that process. And I think a lot of agencies find themselves wasting huge amounts of time to ultimately become what one of my clients described as pitch candy. And that is spending all that time on something you're ultimately never going to win because they end up staying with the incumbent or not doing anything new or different. So I think there's a failure around that process piece as well.

Robert Craven 09:55

I'm the only one who who's spoken to me recently we've just, we just put out A piece of work for a very specific type of site for a client, we put it out in agencies, and it was an agency that had a speciality that and 20 sites like this site are not going to be any more specific. And it was unbelievable to be on the other end of the process. So it was mind numbing, they want 20,000 quid, which is fine. But in the proposal, it said, stage one, exploration and discovery 6000 pounds is to first draft stage three final draft. And when we're back to the set, we don't quite understand what we're getting for our money. Could you just deliverables? We're just saying we don't think you're the right client for us. If you're asking us and questioning us now, don't we don't wish to work with you. Right? We, we all want what we agreed was we're not going to do it for 20. But if they'll do it for 18 They can have our business. Yes. Yeah, our track record. And it was absolutely bizarre. So so. So I'm absolutely with you about agencies getting their own process, right. About as well, I know it kind of jumping around. But it's all good all coming together, it comes together. It feels to me there's three different things going on. There's, there's the referrals, piece around you good do we do good work people tell other people about us. Then the next level up is what I call farming, which is when you physically go out, and we actually do stuff at courage relationships, whether that's referral scripts, or whether that's having a really clear elevator pitch and so on. And then on top of that, which is what i was called hunting, where you literally drew up a list of 200 clients you'd like to work with and sit down with what they want, and you and you go after them. Our conference last month, last more than last month. Gareth, who used to run an agency with 180 people, hit me like this. Said, the one thing I wish I'd done was I'd started that I'd started hunting early on it didn't dawn on grow the agency, I need to be hunting. Just know your view on hunting, because there's a lot of people who say, Oh, if you hunt, then you get the wrong sort of people. If you hunt with the wrong mentality, and farmers can't hunt, we can grow. And then as the we can grow our business organically. That's just about so if there's three levels, I mean, we could have more sophisticated view of the world to me, barrels, farming and hunting, how are those things fit together in your in your world?

Ben Porter 13:12

I'm absolutely with you. And I'm with and I'm with Daris I think in my experience, far too many agencies are simply relying on what happens to come through the front door, whether that's through referrals, or whether that is through a little bit of farming, if we call it that, but they don't tend to make things happen. They don't define very specifically who they want to work with. And they don't take a proactive approach to say, Okay, well, how can we get in front of these people? How can we influence their thinking? And ideally, how can we do that before they start writing a brief and go to market? I think one of the myths is that I'm going to call it inbound. I don't like the word inbound, because it's a word made up by HubSpot to sell software. But this idea of yes, yeah, this idea that if we create lots of content, and we put it out there, we market it have we do that, whether we do it for free, or whether we pay the assumption that the people that we want to see that we'll see it, I think that's misguided, I think, yes, inbound or just digital marketing, let's call it that. Every agency should be doing it. But there is no guarantee that just by putting that content out there, the people that you want to see are going to do so. And that's where I believe any sales and marketing plan will have a blend of referrals but done practically, I'm sure we'll come back to that later on. We'll have a blend of the inbound or the outbound or the farming or the hunting and it needs to be a little bit of all of those things rather than Well, we only adopt an inbound strategy or we only adopt outbound for me. It will be a blend. It will be a blend. And I don't see nearly enough agencies identify what that Write client looks like and do the things they need to do to get in front of them early and influence their thinking. And that's what we're trying to do through hunting, isn't it? Really, we don't want them to go to the market and write a brief. We want to try and influence that thinking earlier on.

Robert Craven 15:15

But the bizarre thing is, this is what Blinky will do for class, they get it. Who is your customer? Avatar? What is their problem? What is the hurdle? Yes. What is it? How can we approach and whether their performance agency or a branding agency yet, heaven forbid that they haven't figured that out for their own cons? Yeah. So yeah, these are real holes of sorry, shoes of, of cobblers having holes? Yes. Yeah. And, you know, so you start building? I think what's interesting is, although on the borders of a couple of agents, I kind of feel that I'm slightly outside. And that's, and that's, and that's the power that we have coming in. But if an agency is all about doing good work, how often is the tagline Good work, good people know? If if the preoccupation is with good work, if that if they only have on average, one business development manager per 25 stars, if business development is left to the poor, exhausted, Director of owner, who's also doing a bit of FD work was also doing is also doing, you know, if they don't do some hunting themselves, they don't have a clear sense of the value if they haven't got a clear proposition, then. Sorry, blood pressure, you're.

Ben Porter 17:00

Therein lies the issue. And that's why a few moments ago, we said, all of these things are interconnected. If you don't have a very clear idea of who your ideal client is, and you haven't nailed down that positioning piece, of which the who is a key part of me, who is it that we are best placed to serve? I think it makes it very difficult to go out and hunt. Because I mean, you try to write a sales and marketing plan, when in essence, you're trying to target everyone, it's nine impossible. Now have another go when you are targeting retailers of under a million quid, for example, that are looking to elevate their business to 5 million quid you know, that's a very clear segment of the market, and an agency might be able to own all of a sudden that brings clarity to say, Okay, well, now we can, we can go out and we can hunt. Because we know where these people are. We know where they're hanging out. We know the events they go to, we know their problems, we can write content, all of this stuff starts to slot in place. But that's much more difficult when effectively, we can do anything for everyone. And I think therein lies the issue. You've got to get the positioning piece nailed first. And then your ability to hunt becomes infinitely easier.

Robert Craven 18:09

Yeah, I mean, I wrote that three, four or five years ago, whatever it was, I wrote two books in the same year. One was grow your digital agency's aims to put comments down and Amazon wrote a book at the same time the guy called Adam Harris called checking strategy journal and checking strategy journal bigger and heavier weight. Yeah. But basically, the premise of both is the same, which is early now where are you going? What the steps on the way fascinating thing is checking strategy Journal of competing against anything and everything in the world of personal development, training, we were competing against Dennis, we were competing against Stephen Covey, we were competing against Anthony Robbins almost impossible to get any traction at all. Virtually no traction at all. Whereas grow your digital agency if the numbers of sales are to be believed to just about every digital agency in this country has a copy of it. Right. Okay. So my point is, it is simply that by niching you can become a very large player in a very small small fish pond and the quote the agent I always love to talk about is conscious solutions in Bristol, you know, who would work with lawyers between 25 and 101. And it's and they know more about lawyers and lawyers do and we've got a system and a process for chickens and it's a lovely business. It's run by lovely people. It's the power of niching. You know, they don't. They don't. They don't work with architects they don't work with, although they could. But they're famous for one thing. Yeah.

Ben Porter 20:15

What's your view on the on the I'm switching things around him a bit and asking you the question. What's your view on the potential limitations that niching down too far? Because that, for me, is often the greatest concern for an agency owner. And when I talk about niching, and defining an audience, I think the assumption is always will that be sectors? Well, actually, I think you can, you can define an audience in a number of different ways, which might mean you don't limit yourself too much. But that's often the concern. Well, if we need to down to five, we won't be able to grow. There's only so far we will be able to take that what's your what's your view on that?

Robert Craven 20:53

Well, firstly, it doesn't have to be by sectors, it could be by psychographic. Or it could be challenger or not for profit. So I think I think the second thing is if you if you there's a book called thought leaders practice, by Matt church, and Peter Cook, not the Peter Cook, nor and they run a thing called the thought leaders Business School and they've got this model, I'd be really quick because it's that they say you take your IP, you itemise your IP, so your IP could be 25 different things. So you then decide what platform you're going to use to sell it. So that could be membership site could be keynote speaking, it could be books, it could be discussion forum, it could PPC, and then you decide what your target customer is to be managing directors or finance director, the finance industry service centre, really break it down and select one piece of IP that you sell on one platform to one time customer. If you take that kind of approach, once conscious Solutions has exhausted the 230 towns in the UK, each having a lawyer can go back and they can do exactly the same thing for accountants or IP. The IP exists just coated and presented in a different way. And the same way that I've been asked to go from digital agencies to agencies, agencies, I've now been asked to work with IFA to kind of make a decision about are you a one trick pony, but are you? Uh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And a narrower or you wide and broad. And I think it's, it's easier to identify the competition season to identify the potential customer, it's easier to identify their needs and wants and hurts my thing. How important is positioning? I think we're kind of saying positioning is everything?

Ben Porter 23:07

I think so. Yeah, I always ask people to imagine a pyramid. It's a bit like the Maslow Pyramid but a bit of a development version. Positioning for me is the foundation. If you get that write everything else that sits on top of that in terms of writing your proposition in terms of building your sales and marketing plan, having a framework for how you qualify prospects, pitching, presenting, all of that becomes, again, not easy, but becomes easier by getting the position and piece nailed down at the beginning. I think inevitably, when you are a generalist, you are generally described as an agency that is doing lots of things for lots of different people. Inevitably, that's where you're going to fall into the trap of potentially being commoditized downward pressure on pricing, a lot more competitive pitching, probably a lot more tendering, a lot more of a pitch candy that I referred to earlier on. So for me positioning, absolutely key.

Robert Craven 24:02

And is there a model or toolkits that you use around positioning? Is it just the marketing one to one you get out of Cotler or other people's money?

Ben Porter 24:16

For me, it comes in terms of how I define what good positioning is in an agency context? I think it's three things. It's defining that audience. And as we said, I think there are a multitude of ways you can do that. And you can get quite creative with how you define the audience. A few examples we referred to earlier, it's not only the sector, it might be where a client is on their journey, what they're trying to achieve. It might be targeting a certain demographic, there are different ways of being able to do that, as well as some of the ones you referred to a moment ago. The second thing is I do think the agencies that tend to stand out stand for something now I'm not going to start going into Simon Sinek I do think I do think And I'm very much in the middle with this, when I first read it, I went full hammer and tongs. And I disappointed myself when I couldn't find an agency that had that real proper sense of purpose. Because I think a lot of the reasons why agencies have been created. Whilst there is a sense of purpose there, it's not necessarily relevant to the end client, they don't care that you worked for a big agency, thought it was a bit crap and thought you set up on your own. That's great. That's your purpose, but it's irrelevant to the client. But I do think if it's not a sense of purpose that you want to put front and centre or should be front and centre, it standing for something is having a point of view, it's, it's not just drifting into the murder of creating, how to update your meta tags, or how to do PPC better, it's actually having a bit of a point of view or perspective, that should be a little bit like Marmite, in the sense that it's going to attract some people who share that point of view, it's actually going to detract others that don't, and I think that's.

Robert Craven 25:58

Who they are, who we are. Yeah, we're sorry, who they are.

Ben Porter 26:06

Who we are. Yeah, and I think the final thing in terms of actually how you bring all this to life is just avoiding all the agency. The agencies speak, the blurb, the jargon, the passion, the award-winning, the integrated, even the full service. I think a lot of the language agencies use a when you actually step back from it, and I'm in the fortunate position where you and I can do that. And we can kind of get away with being a bit more forthright, in our opinion, I read a lot of it and go actually, this is meaningless if it's not relevant to what the client is looking to actually buy. And because everybody else is saying it, it actually loses its meaning even more so. So I try to encourage my clients anyway, to be more down to earth. More humans use normal, even colloquial day to day language rather than the language of agency. I'd even go a step further, I think some of the Language of Business has become a bit tired, sales revenue market share, for me, they're almost a given. Can you find a more creative way of expressing that which is possibly a bit more emotive? So that's my kind of criteria for good positioning? And then yes, there is a whole process that I would work through with a client that involves workshopping with the senior team and involves speaking to clients speaking to staff to try and find that, that thing, it's always there. It's whether they're willing to make the sacrifices needed, to specialise and to bring that thing to life.

Robert Craven 27:41

You kind of got to this bit about the words that can be used and how the words can be used and that they shouldn't be the standard. The wardroom, Wonderwall and Google premiere? Yeah. And then I was kind of waiting for you to say, for example, the sort of phrase that might appeal might be a new kind of work off. So kind of, I mean, without being totally specific about what you've done, when, what an example of what, of what, what, how you

Ben Porter 28:14

might bring that to life? Yeah, I think, you know, don't, don't get me wrong, all these things are there, you know, they are features of which an agency wants to talk about at some point. And I totally get that. It's just when you read a proposition, which is literally plastered with integrated award winning, passionate, honest, friendly, etc, etc. To give an example, I did, I won't name them because

Robert Craven 28:41

We'll kind of Google it.

Ben Porter 28:43

But I worked, I worked with an agency, and I'm still working with them now down in London. And we went through this whole process and realised that most if not all of their clients are our challenges. We talked about the daily challenge of brands, their operator, number 234, or five in the market. There is an acceptance that they're never going to be number one, because the number one player is too far ahead. But they want to make life difficult for that number one player in the market. And through a client interview. One of the people I was interviewing said, what we're looking to do is really close the gap on that number one player, and I thought close the gap. What a wonderful way of articulating in a more emotive way, what they are trying to do, we could have just said they're trying to eat into market share or take revenue away from the leading player. So we ended up using that phrase, and that wouldn't have come out unless we'd actually spoken to the client and got their perspective on it. So a small example of where I think you can avoid some of the language of business and actually express the same thing in hopefully a more emotive and interesting way.

Robert Craven 29:48

Nice, very nice, very nice indeed.

Ben Porter 29:53

I can't take the credit for it of course because it was the client's client but it wouldn't have happened without I think that comes Session taking place.

Robert Craven 30:01

Yeah, yeah, pretty good. So, who is? Who in the agency manages new business in the business development?

Ben Porter 30:15

You're gonna hate me? Because I'm gonna say it depends. I think it depends on the size of the agency. As interesting earlier, when you said that they've taken on their first BD around about 2528 people, I think they've done pretty well to get to that stage without having had an interest if they ever brought somebody in before and it failed. It was that literally the first time they brought that BD in

Robert Craven 30:36

Now, they are a really lovely, lovely bunch of people. Really lovely work. Yeah. And, they have credible commitment and loyalty from their clients. So they've always managed to maintain the agency by doing really, really great work. I mean, all the kind of the way the user going after them are doing great work really understand. And, making it a pleasure to work with. Yes, yeah. Then suddenly, they realise that as often happens with agency, we've actually, we've got five more years more years at this game. So we can do something serious about it. Let's be a bit more businesslike. So yeah, let's step up to the plate. And rather than hope is not a method, let's actually invest in the future. And, and, and wrap them to become more professionalised.

Ben Porter 31:35

Yes, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'll set an answer to the question, I think of an agency of a certain size, inevitably, it's going to fall on the agency owners, those that are most senior, I think that works to an extent, particularly at the beginning, there's a huge amount of excitement and enthusiasm, they're going to probably have a network of people that they can lean on for the referrals that they need to get the agency to, I think a certain a certain points. And I often find the agency owners are good at the bit where they're in front of people, they can get very excited, they can ask the questions and so on, they're probably not quite as good at what I describe in the nicest possible way as grunt work. And that is a lot of the research is a lot of the the outbound activity prospecting, if you want to call it that, it's it's all of that stuff that needs to happen to generate opportunities, it's the it's the hunting bit, that possibly they're not quite figured out, depending on their background. Ultimately, the best person in the agency would be a dedicated business developer. But they're few and far between, in my experience, finding good business developers is tough, that can blend the sales skills with the industry know how or the product knowledge of that particular agency, there are just not that many of them around, that would be the ideal in an agency of maybe 1520-1525 people. Otherwise, it might be a sales and marketing exec who was doing a lot of the grunt work, I say it again. And they are almost kind of trying to tee things up, if you like for the agency owners to then go out there, and kind of do their thing. Taking a step back from all of that, I would say it's a team effort. If not down to one single person in that agency, it can't be the skills, the attributes needed to drive leads, and when business are so far away, are so far reaching that it can't ever come down to a single person. In my view, anyway, everybody in my view can bring something to the party, whether that's managing social, creating content, going to an event, everybody will have something that they can use in order to help that agency attract business. But it's often not seen as that kind of cultural thing that I think it needs to be.

Robert Craven 33:53

So what does work best in terms of lead gen lead generation? Um,

Ben Porter 34:01

I think if you're going to ask most agencies, what is the best source of leads, they will always say referrals.

Robert Craven 34:07

But

Ben Porter 34:10

Very rare, again, are referrals sought in a more proactive manner. It tends to be good, we'll just wait for those referrals to come to us rather than saying, Who is it again, that we actually want to speak to, how are we connected to those people? How can we use our existing network to tap into those organisations and those people so I think there is a more practical way of doing it. Again, if you were to ask me what's best, is it inbound and outbound? Is it maybe more traditional marketing and PR, like speaking events or going to events? Again, I don't think one is any better than the other. I think for any agency, it's probably going to be a blend of four or five, six things done very, very well, rather than 20. Things Done habitually or poorly Yeah,

Robert Craven 35:01

But you can't. It is a flywheel, you know, unless you've got the positioning and who you're targeting and what their, what their issue is and what they're looking for and what your competition are not able to present them in a way that they lean in. Nevermind, get them to the events. Nevermind. Yeah, conversation with them. Nevermind have a half decent selling closing price. Yes, yeah. Motion. So absolutely. Okay.

Ben Porter 35:34

It goes back to that same point. Again, you know, if you're going to create that sales and marketing plan, if you're going to define those activities, you firstly, and this is marketing 101, you first need to define the audience. Who are we actually trying to speak to? What do they read? Where do they hang out? What events do they go to? What are their problems, let's create some content around that, you know, unless you've done that piece, first, inevitably, defining what those 567 activities are going to be and whether it's maybe weighted a bit more towards inbound, or whether you do need to do more of a hunting, it's very difficult to do if you don't firstly, define the audience in the first place.

Robert Craven 36:09

Okay, I'm gonna just go through a few quickfire questions which were asked. Just so we get a bit of an insight into who benefits really and then we'll come back more to back to the business and what your recommendations are. So what's your favourite movie?

Ben Porter 36:30

Favourite movie? I'm not I'm not very good at favourites. Because I just think there's so much good stuff out there. If you were to, if I had to narrow it down to one a film that if I happen to be channel hopping, and it's on, I would always stop and watch it, it'd be Pulp Fiction, I think maybe era thing. You know, when it came out, we watched it on repeat. And then every time I say it's the only film that I'll go, Yeah, I'll sit back and watch this again. And you can jump into anywhere. So at any point, if it's the last 10 minutes, or the first 15 Oh, yeah. And then before, you know, it's one o'clock in the morning on a Friday, and the kids are gonna be up at six. But it's the one film that I will always watch recovery. Again, my musical tastes are very wide and varied. I used to DJ back in the day and occasionally still do. So I'm very into kind of dance music and stuff like that. But anything from rock to rap, to folk and everything in between. But I was raised in the States for about four or five years when I was very small. And that meant that my mum fed me on a diet of Bruce Springsteen. So I am a very big boss fan. If I was going to narrow it down to one album, I think it would be darkness on the edge of town. Right back to his early stuff. Yes, it's probably the boss.

Robert Craven 37:46

And what's the go to phrase that you probably use too much?

Ben Porter 37:51

It's probably something like, at the end of the day, business development is very simple. It comes down to doing enough of the right things consistently. Well, always. I'm finding myself saying that all the time. But it's true. It's true. Consistency is key. So yeah, I probably bought myself for the number of times I say that.

Robert Craven 38:10

Okay, so what I mean, the question for me at the moment really is what will agencies look like in three years time bearing in mind shifts in consumers, customers, advertisers, branding. Everything else that's going on in world politics?

Ben Porter 38:35

Just know, yeah. Where would the world be in three years time? I actually don't think overall, it's going to look significantly different to where we are today. I think you're right. I think there are certain things, technologies and so on, such as AI AR voice that I think are possibly overhyped a little bit at the moment. If you were to speak to the vast majority of SMEs in the UK, you know, Ayar voice isn't on their radar. I think that will come more prevailing. And I do think that means an agency's service offering will need to evolve. But I think if we were sitting here having this conversation in three years time, I think there will be just as many agencies, some of the agencies we know today won't be here, but in their place will be a number of other agencies filling that void. I think there will be more of a trend towards specialisation. And I think, you know, you could ask 10 clients, what do they prefer? Do they prefer working with five specialists or do they prefer working with One Agency? And the answer will be different every time. But I do think there is a move towards agencies being more focused and more specialised. I think that the big issue is going to be around skills is going to be around Are there enough good people To do the job within within an agency, I think that's probably an overarching economical economic issue. But I also think if you look at how people want to work these days, more and more people are good examples of those who have worked in organisations and then have gone out and set up on their own, and enjoy the freedom and lifestyle that working for yourself can bring. And I think we're only going to see more of that in turn, which I think will have an impact on agencies and how they can bring in and hold on to the right people. I think that's a key, a key challenge. And I think that's the one thing in three years time we might be sitting here going. It's even more of a challenge now than it was then.

Robert Craven 40:42

And is that about the snowflakes and this younger generation? We've been named for being notoriously entitled, etc, etc, all the way through.

Ben Porter 41:00

I think and I don't like the old millennials, Gen Zed, and all that kind of terminology. But I think I think they get a bit of a hard press with respect to that. I just think they have grown up in a very different time and age. I mean, I was joking at a talk I did the other night with a slightly younger audience about remembering the time when there wasn't the internet. And you know, people look at you like you're, you're nuts. I think people that are 20-25 years old, have just grown up in a very different time, with a great deal more convenience offered to them than we certainly had when I was, you know, 14-15 years old. I think their expectations of work and the role it plays in their life is obviously very different to this kind of play hard work hard type mentality of the 80s and 90s. So I don't necessarily blame them for that. But I think employers need to be able to adjust their approach to work and employment to account for it.

Robert Craven 42:02

And what's the one thing the one thing right now, the biggest challenge you think agencies are facing right now? Because they could argue it's the same thing?

Ben Porter 42:12

Yeah, I think so. Well, if you have been going on what we've spoken about today, if you look at the wild companies bench press report, which I think they're gonna be releasing the next two or three weeks last year, it was business development. That was the number one challenge for most agency owners. So I think that means that hopefully, I still have a job in three years time. But I think there is a lot of skill shortage and people to do the job. So I mean, the number of agencies I speak to, who are trying to recruit for PPC people, and unable to find them is staggering. If I was 20, I'd tell you what I'd be doing. I'd be studying PPC day in and day out. Because you can go and demand a fairly hefty wage if you do, but I think I think it is those two things that win the right work. And then it's surfacing it, which is ultimately what a UN agency is there to do.

Robert Craven 43:04

I think I know your answer to this one. But I'd be interested to hear the one thing that frustrates you most about the agencies that you meet, excluding your clients, of course.

Ben Porter 43:14

Excluding my clients well, it again, it again, it goes back to that we're not really growing or the market is tough. But we only rely on referrals for our new business. It's not. Well, I'm not surprised, it's tough if you're only relying on something of which you have very little control over how to expect to grow your agency. And inevitably, that's why agencies are up and down like that, because they're not taking control of that. So I think that's probably the most frustrating thing I would hear is, if they're not joining those dots together, I think there's an expectation that the business will just land and you and I know it doesn't happen that way.

Robert Craven 43:52

And a one line recommendation, or a one line recommendation you give to virtually every single agency,

Ben Porter 44:00

Something or lines, you've got to make things happen, make stuff happen, get off, get up. This is in reference to business development. I think it goes back to the point earlier, all agencies I think are good at defining their service offering and putting a process around that and making stuff happen with that respect, that they don't make stuff happen enough when it comes to we want to work with these brands. This fits the profile, we can really add value there. We've done it before, let's go out and make things happen and get our name in front of them. So I think for most agents, it is being proactive. I hate to use that word, but it is making stuff happen. Getting off your ass and doing it rather than just copying is going to land. And I'm happy to walk maybe once a year, once a year in my experience, maybe that wandering client came through the front door and you want it and it was a happy day. But beyond that, we had to go out and hunt. We really did. We didn't have the massive budgets and resources and flood of inbound leads and maybe larger agencies. However, if you're smaller, you've got to get off your ass and make it happen.

Robert Craven 45:04

So if what you're saying the top of the programme is right, that people don't do biz dev, because it's a culture because of the lack of focus, or lack of attention, because it's not what they're trying to do, because they don't have the skills in place because they don't have positioning. Yeah, it's not just as simple as sitting people down and saying, let's sort out your positioning statement. Because out of that, we can start figuring out how we're going to reach people? Or is it as some kind of a secret sauce there still needs to be kind of poured in to make it happen, because because my clients, all agency owners all read the same staff, they all know base depths of problem, they all go to the workshop, they all read the reports about this topic, and they struggled to find more of the right size, the right type of plants, because they still don't give biz dev the credit, respect. Whatever is sold. Yeah, yeah. Is there a secret? I mean, is it just that some people just don't get it? And they'll never get it? Or is it? I mean, is it that you go into people when the light bulb kind of goes and people don't quite understand?

Ben Porter 46:27

Yes, I suppose often, often, often the trigger for maybe bringing somebody like myself in is that they have jumped from thing to thing, and found out along the way, the hard way, that none of those things in isolation have necessarily worked. So, you know, fielding stuff out to a lead gen agency, they do that for a year, that doesn't really work. Because in my experience it rarely does. They bring in a BD, but they don't necessarily know how to properly manage and nurture that person. So in three months, when they haven't brought business in, they're out the door. So I think I think often the trigger is like, we tried everything. There's an acceptance now that if we're going to do this, well, we have to really take ownership of it and do it ourselves. We can't just keep sort of farming out to these different suppliers, people, whatever else it may be, is that there a secret sauce? I honestly don't think there is, I think, you know, ultimately, we are dealing with people. So I think if we're talking about positioning, you've got to have internal alignment, everybody's got to be on the same page with respect to what the agency is trying to do. I think once that's nailed down, which is obviously a part of that positioning piece. For me, it's execution. It's doing those right things consistently well, all the time. And what often happens, you and I as well as I, the agency, when a big bit of business, it's all heads down, focused on getting that that project done along the way, they might lose a client or two, and then that project comes to an end and they will lift their heads up, look at Pipeline and go, shit, there's nothing, there's nothing there. So they turn the tap back on again. But of course, it takes weeks and months to build that pipeline back up. So the secret sauce for me is very simple to say. Very, very difficult to actually get right in most agencies. And it's, it's keeping the tap running all of the time, even when you don't think you need to keep the tank running. Because you don't know what's around the corner. That lovely client might all of a sudden handle noticing no fault of his own, but then you know, there's a big hole to fill. You can't just turn the tap on them, and then expect them to be able to fill that fill that hole overnight and it just doesn't

Robert Craven 48:35

Doesn't happen like that. So what what, what next?

Ben Porter 48:43

What next? A couple of years ago we moved to the Midlands from Brighton. So I've been spending a lot of time getting to know the world in and around where I am now. So looking at places like Leicester Nottingham has given me a real impetus in terms of places that would be previously inaccessible. I think from Brighton really, to start finding out what's going on in this part of the world even in places like Manchester and Leeds and I studied Liverpool I'll be making way back there in the coming weeks and months. So that's exciting. There's loads going on. It's not all about London, you will know being down in Bristol, there's always scratch below the surface and there are hundreds of agencies all doing Brilliant stuff. So that's exciting. I've just started doing a video. I've finally relented to the pressure on LinkedIn and started doing a video about starting on an exact role for the first time which is exciting. So that's something I haven't done before. So yeah, more of the same, I think more of the same. It's an exciting, exciting time. Brilliant.

Robert Craven 49:48

And finally wrap up the show. Yeah. But top tips or what would you do for pertinent viewer viewer If you're starting or growing a digital agency now, what are your What are your kind of your, your top tips?

Ben Porter 50:08

Firstly, I'm not sure I'm not sure I would be less. I think if you're going to start an agency and you are trying to be all things to all people, I think it's going to be bloody hard work first and foremost. I think if I was going to start an agency it would be about trying to find that niche or that specialisation. And then I think beyond that, it's going to sound quite boring. But it's gonna go back to a lot of the themes that we discussed today about how to make this stuff easier. And I think it comes down to getting that positioning piece nailed down, it comes down to maybe doing four or five things really, really well, when it comes to your sales and marketing activity. Rather than stretching yourself. I mean, there is so much choice these days. It's like a kid in a sweet shot when it comes to all the things you could be doing to attract leads. But my view is in most small agencies, you can probably do four or five, six things really well. So really focus, and then and then it comes back to that same point again, relentless execution and consistency. And in doing those things on an ongoing basis, that is as close as you're gonna get to me revealing a secret sauce or a magic formula or a rabbit out of hat. That's it. That really is it. I'd love to, I'd love I'd love your listeners to go away with this. This grand reveal of something that they had not considered or done before. But in my experience, it kind of just doesn't, it doesn't exist. It's all of the things we've been talking about today.

Robert Craven 51:45

That has been an absolutely great interview. Pleasure having you on the programme then. And it just leaves me to say an enormous big thank you people will be able to find your contact details and so on. Yes, yeah. Thank you very much indeed for a great conversation. Thank you. Thanks for having me.