Video - Recruiting in 2022 - The Top Five Challenges for Digital Agencies with Leon Milns

VIDEO: 53:49 mins

AUTHOR: Leon Milns, We Are Adam

In this GYDA Expert Seminar, Leon Milns of We Are Adam, joins Robert Craven to talk everything recruitment in 2022. They discuss what's happening in the digital agency space and the top five challenges facing every agency when recruiting.

The key points;

• Shortage of talent and huge demand – how do you attract / entice / seduce the best people to leave and join you?

• Retention – there’s a lack of stickability, heads are constantly being turned and people are jumping ship

• Affordability – salaries are sky-rocketing, it’s a sellers market

• Uniqueness of proposition – how are you standing out in a crowded market? Top candidates will have a handful of agencies chasing them!

• Creating a compelling culture – the evolving post pandemic world. Remote vs in office, permutations of what people want vs business demands.

Trancsription:

Robert Craven  00:07

Welcome to a mini masterclass with the wonderful Leon Milns "We Are Adam", weareadam.com. And the subject is very much HR and the kind of the sub brief was kind of five things. And rather than it being a formal masterclass with a slide deck and so on and so forth, it can be a lot more interactive than that. So I will start the questioning. And hopefully, you and the audience will chuck stuff into the chat and ask him and Leon knows that people in recruitment aren't the most loved people in the agency world, and therefore, he has quite thick skin. And he'll lead it because I've got some nasty questions for him. Let me just like to tell people roughly what you do and what right have you got to stand up in front of people? And talk about about recruitment in the agency world?

Leon Milns  01:14

Thank you, first of all, thanks. I've just spotted that I have a love offering up. Thank you very much, at least one person on this call. Yeah, so for those of you that don't know me, my name is Leon Milns. I am the co-founder of We Are Adam. We've been in business now for 16 year. And I guess we help both ambitious agencies and brands find great people with skill sets across digital marketing, advertising, commercial, and HR. And I guess we've got a successful track record of that period of time of helping both startups scaleups fast growth, SMEs, and both PLCs helping identify, attract and tie some land, I guess elusive people from one business to another.

Robert Craven  02:07

Okay. So I mean, the reality that everyone is facing, and the reason that everyone's kind of on the call and listening to the call is right now There are not enough people to fill the jobs. There's huge demand. Ironically, it may well be that everyone's looking for people. But actually, there aren't as many jobs as there are. But everyone's looking. Everyone talks a whole blinking time to me about how I get people? How do I get people? Now 18 months ago, I just said, Oh, it's all about your culture and your values and donors. Now, it just seems to be brutally about who pays the most gets the best candidates? Is that being a bit unkind? Is there a bit more subtlety and a bit more finesse going on? Or is it just that a few aren't good people and pay 20% more than anyone else?

Leon Milns  03:03

Yeah. So I guess Yes, a bit of narrative behind that, let's rewind the clock. Two years ago, today, more or less COVID hits, all our businesses are thrown into a state of chaos. Hiring is put on, it's frozen for the foreseeable, we're staring down the barrel of a gun, oh, we're gonna have a business, or we're not gonna have a business because of COVID. So basically, all businesses, all agencies just freeze their hiring growth for probably a period of 6, 9, 12 months. We've all over that period, we've all evolved our propositions and the start of 2021. There's a resurgence of confidence and businesses and agencies start hiring and what that means in 2021, there's two years, there's two years of growth put into one year. So that's where the surge of demand for talent goes through the roof. Through the Eyes of talent, there's still a faction of people that just won't be enticed from their business or agency to look at another opportunity. Now, if you've been in a role in a business for a long period of time, you're safe. You know, if there is going to be another downside, you say you've not got a target on your back. If you were to leave and join another business, you've potentially got a target on your back as last in first out, so that already means that maybe half the pool of talent aren't going to look for a new opportunity. So then you're squeezed, there's a pool that's been squeezed down. Through the Eyes of business owners and senior leaders we've realised through the pandemic that more so than ever, people are the greatest asset in all of our businesses. So we've made sure that we're keeping them engaged, happy, bought into the business, they're all 12 month development plans. There's a really clear cut defined vision of where the business is now but where it's going, what your key contribution is going to be, to make that vision a reality. The annual getting well paid. So if all those boxes are being ticked, if we put ourselves in the shoes of employees, if all those boxes are being ticked, you don't need to go and look at and you're happy, you don't need to go and look on LinkedIn at lunchtime because you're happy doing the job that you're doing. In terms of demand, Robert, we received a salary survey. And when we're getting all our stats together by ONS data, we found out there's a record high of 1.3 million vacancies at the moment in the UK, and unemployment has dropped to 3.9%, which is lower than pre-pandemic. So if you look at those numbers, it's just crazy. In terms of how much demand there is for those sorts of talented people.

Robert Craven  05:49

So is that gap of having high vacancies but low, high vacancies and high employment? Is that because a bunch of people have disappeared off the market?

Leon Milns  06:04

I think, yeah, people aren't leaving, people aren't moving. First and foremost is that faction that I referred to. And then I think, if we can all look at our own top performers in our business, we've probably all tried to ring fence them from having their head turned by putting them on a development plan, aligning remuneration with performance, giving them the flexibility that they want. So as I say, I think we're all being a little bit smarter to keep them totally engaged. So when people like myself come along and tap them on the shoulder and say, Hey, how are you doing, I've got a really good opportunity with X, Y, and Zed. The majority of those people like Well, that's great, it sounds really good. But I'm really happy where I am. I know where I'm going, I know where I'm developing, I know the contribution I'm going to make. And you know what, I'm being pretty well paid for the endeavours that I'm putting in. So I guess it's just a perfect storm of those aforementioned factors that are making it separately hard to hire people.

Robert Craven  07:10

So if you've got a hole in your business, at any level, let's just start off talking about it at any level, I think people are complaining about how they fill holes, right the way through the business. Know, level one down LinkedIn, level two talk to your staff, level three go to the network, level four go to agency networks, level five ask your friends. Everyone avoids bloody recruitment consultants, bloody hand hunters, bloody whatever you want to call them. Because it's a bit like I had an Indian meal once and I had a bad tummy afterwards. Therefore all Indian restaurants give you a bad tummy. It's a little bit. It's a little bit similar. And as you know, no role Thank you. Tim Barlow in Edinburgh, there are people who are raving fans. And I know a lot of your raving fans. But it's a tough jump to go from the kind of in a way DIY Never mind the different varieties but to go from DIY to done for you. So does done for you fit every time? Or should you do DIY first and then done for you in reserve, that's the default, or is it like the one thing no one ever wants to do but inevitably, you have to do it?

Leon Milns  07:27

Yeah, I think maybe a blend of both. Businesses that I've worked with other I know, well, have a mindset of always being hiring. So whether or not whether you have or you don't have a vacancy, always have stuff in the shop window. So that you've hopefully got a pseudo treadmill of people that you can be talking to so you can ascertain the quality of the people in the marketplace. If they're not right, if you don't have something right there, and then for them now and they're not quite ready for you. You just it's about having that virtual bench of talent, isn't it? So if you can do that off your own bat, brilliant to keep that, as I say that treadmill of people coming in, and then you can just really, you're not going to hire in a desperate way I've seen so many businesses make that fatal error of check with we've got an empty seat, we need to put a bow on a seat and they you know, that's when you make the errors of hiring the wrong people because you don't get through the right process. You don't do the right due diligence. You just think right, well, they're 6, 7, 8 outs in it. They'll do and more often than not, I mean, not see many faces there but then as many people are nodding going Yeah, we've done that. Yeah, everyone's done it. We've done it. You know, we were meant to be experts in hiring people, we have made cataclysmic efforts in our hiring because we've not done it properly. That was early on in our existence, thankfully. But I would use a blend of both. We also I know it sounds ridiculous, we also have to engage in REC Terrex recruitment to recruitment specialists. And if you think we're terrible, try engaging with these people. I mean, they are not beneath us.

Robert Craven  09:00

What does it mean?

Leon Milns  09:54

They are a recruitment business specifically who go and find recruiters for other recruiters. I know it sounds ridiculous, but if we spend our days networking across marketing, digital HR, commercial people, we don't have an in-house function who can network amongst recruiters, so we have to engage with several of these people. And we have partnered with a couple who have been worth their weight in gold, I'd say of the probably 50% of the people that are here now have been hired through rhetoric, probably 50% it's been done organically by ourselves. But the way we look at it is to have all your options open, keep all your options open so that if that one person, Mike, that very best person might come into a third party, yes, you might have to pay a fee for it, or you will have to pay a fee for it. But if they're, if you're gonna get three, four or five years out of them, or even more out of them, surely that's a great ROI.

Robert Craven  11:32

But in this over commoditized world, and I would argue that if you're out there looking for a job, all agencies look pretty much similar. Yeah, bloody foosball tables and values up on the wall and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, all that bit like that. It's normally a bit more we are open, honest and transparent and all of it kind of woowoo. But it looks like if you're looking for a new job, all the agencies look pretty similar. There's not a lot of differentiation. You know, we're all young. We'll talk about diversity, we will talk about going the extra mile. So I mean, really, and I get everyone doing their bestest. But how do you attract? How do you entice? How do you seduce people? Yeah, come to me, come to me, because everyone's doing the same thing. Everyone's going, Oh, our agent is really cool. Look at our video, it's so much fun to look at the parties we have. Look at our cool boardroom. So how do you stand out from that mass?

Leon Milns  12:50

It's a very good question. I don't have that silver bullet, unfortunately. You refer to the pool table and the beanbags. I mean, that was a unique selling point five years or so ago, wasn't it? You know, everyone was like, right, we gotta make it really cool. You have the slide in the office and all that kind of just, you know, gone are the days of that. So what is it that attracts people nowadays? What are people looking for? I think first and foremost, a compelling culture. You know, cultures have had to evolve hugely over the last couple of years, you look at pre pandemic, and look at post pandemic, the whole flexible workingб working from home that is now expected, not just an attraction tool, you know, pre pandemic, a four day working week or the opportunity to have a dishwasher day, if your dishwashers broken down or whatever, you could do that nowadays, genuinely one of the first questions people ask us, regardless of how experienced they are, genuinely you get first second time job is what's the remote working policy. And if there's not a three, two or two, three, they'll escape. Yeah, thanks very much. You know, I don't know, which is ridiculous. I've really struggled to get my head around that because, you know, when I was back in my 20s, early, mid 20s. I wanted to be part of a community. I wanted to be part of a business whereby you, by carelessly learning from sitting in an office, go for a buddy at lunchtime with a colleague to catch up on that sort of thing. And on a Thursday, let's go out for beers and get pissed. People have changed in terms of what they want, they want that flexibility. They want to be able to wake up on a day and go or do you know what a fancy going to the office today, which isn't great for us business owners and that sort of thing that is the kind of mindset shift that we are all having to deal with. So I think flexing and evolving that working, compelling cultures is a really important one. I'm going to say the P word and now you'll see your scowl at me but the purpose and eight stop switching you know people now do want to work for a business or an agency that does actually have a bit of a sentimental purpose behind why they do what they do. You know, B Corp is going nuts at the moment has been going nuts. But people don't just want to work on a Vodafone account or something that's meaningless that they want to work for something where they feel like they are actually making a meaningful contribution with the work that they're doing. So having a really strong purpose behind why you do what you do is really important. And the pandemic has any heighten that. I think vision. You know, having a great story of what you've done is really important. But more importantly, this is where we are now. And this is where we're going to be in 12-18 months, two years, three years time. And an exciting being an exciting place surrounded by talented people with strong leadership. And exciting clients is absolutely crucial. I know, we've probably talked about that over the last several years. But I think that is those points now are more, more vital and focus than ever.

Robert Craven  16:13

Do you think that's the case, as much in a performance agency as it would be in like kind of full service marketing agency, do you think it goes right? This is more a generational thing rather than an in marketplace thing?

Leon Milns  16:28

Yeah. And I think it's across the board. I mean, I haven't got data to support that's more anecdotal, from chatting to kind of the diverse breadth of talent that we do speak to on a daily basis, or myself and my colleagues, you know, we're all, you know, we have a weekly meeting where we do talk about the, I guess, the machinations of what's going on in the market, what are candidates after what the talent want nowadays, and that still seems to be resonating.

Robert Craven  16:55

So I wrote an article on this subject this morning. And I was trying to articulate that it's a seller's market. You know that it's not a buyers market. And in the last month, maybe four times I've heard agency folk say to be, we had this candidate. And at the end of the interview, the candidate said, thank you very much. I'm seeing a few other agencies. And I'll be back to back with you in a week or two to let you know whether you've the one. And that's from a 22 year old, you know, as much as it's from a 52 year old, I mean, the world has gone bonkers. Is it just that we're all getting very old and a bit grey?

Leon Milns  17:44

Yeah, well, it's the same as the housing market, isn't it? The housing market it's exactly the same scenario. With candidates, as you say, Yeah, great people are getting the pick of the bunch. Are they playing one business off against each other? Possibly. I don't know. But literally, it is a question of what more can I get from this business versus that business? Whether it's a financial incentive, whether it's a personal development plan, personal budget, you know, all those little bits and bobs.

Robert Craven  18:20

Tim Barlow, you've got a great question, though. Do you want to come off and just tell us in your own words? Come off your mute. Thank you.

Tim Barlow  18:32

Hello. In terms of this sort of beauty parade going the other way around, you know, one of the things that we've had to do is kind of really condense our process for recruiting it feels like that if we go to the full extent of due diligence that we used to do that we're going to miss out on the good people. And I wonder what your thoughts are around that there's obviously a balance we've got to be found somewhere.

Leon Milns  19:09

You're right, Tim. Especially with I guess the specifics of the kind of people and professionals you're looking for, I think when people with the skill sets that you're looking for put their head above the parapet they literally will get four or five six different agencies that want to hire them. So yes, speed of turnaround, dynamic turnaround. I don't know if we would always say if you can interview someone within 24-48 hours of that CV landing that will obviously heighten your, the potential and the chances of landing that person but again, it's I've always been taught or ever, you know, all the different entrepreneurial networks like this and other networks I've been part of in the last 15 years. The whole concept of hiring slowly fires fast. And it is totally going against the grain at the moment because if you do hire slowly, you're gonna miss out on potentially that very best person. So I don't think I've got an answer to question but if that is helping, but I guess the more I guess the more dynamic that you can be during that interview process and have the more people on present to show willing to do that the sell the proposition, meet people via teams or the beach break up people in front of you. I guess that does more of the seduction piece, doesn't it? I guess it was just one person doing one on one banal interview questions, it's not really going to get that kind of warm feeling inside about, that's the kind of business that I want to go to and love the sound of the leadership, the management, that sort of thing.

Tim Barlow  20:55

I mean, I feel we're having to gauge a candidate by sort of almost how well they're interviewing us as to whether they're, you know, a good candidate, because 90% of the interview now is about us, as opposed to about the candidate. We're not quite that percentage, but certainly a very large percentage. And, you know, I'm guessing it, you know, are you seeing people having to do the same as that, as you know, we're living in our kind of bubble? Is that something that you are seeing across your clients?

Leon Milns  21:27

Yeah, 100%. Now, yeah, definitely not just you, Tim, even we are having to do exactly the same. What I'm saying now isn't just unique to marketing or digital agencies, this is every business.

Tim Barlow  21:43

There is sort of what are the signals, you know, in the absence of our kind of regular signals that we're using to have to gauge people what, you know, any thoughts on other things that we can look at to be able to do a bit of due diligence? Or a bit more due diligence that doesn't add, you know, involves us maybe doing work rather than the candidate?

Leon Milns  22:04

Yeah, that's a good question. I think robustness of interview questioning still has to be there. I think if you lay out or if you're laying out to an individual, this is how the process is going to, this is how the process is going to unravel. During the interviewing process. You know, the first half hour, the first hour will talk to you will give you the seller notes on the proposition, what we've done, where we are going, all that kind of good stuff, and give them the opportunity to, I guess, pseudo interview you. And then hopefully, we as business leaders, surely we can all sell in our business as well and excite people. Hopefully, when we've done that, and they've got the bit of the dot the vibe of whom you can then flip it on the head and then start really probing them against what they've done what they can bring to the party, no consequence questions that our guests that is only contingent on us having done as well, let's say you've engaged with recruitment partners, as we're helping you, if we've done everything we should have done in that warming up sort of stage, they should already be excited and interested in engaged with the business. And then you go and compound that, and then it's a question of you flipping a right. Okay. Shoes on the other foot. Now, I guess its humour has a bit of everything really, isn't it? inject a bit of personality and authenticity into it? Yeah, I guess it's probably worth saying, Yeah, we know that talent is in demand and shortage at the moment, but you know, we are going to have to put you through your paces, as I'm sure if you were in our shoes, you'd have to put us up is that sort of thing. So I guess just be that authentic with it. And then I guess you can gauge someone a little bit better.

Tim Barlow  23:46

And, you know, there's obviously a balance to be get on the basis that you don't look at, you know, it's a bad look, if you're not digging a bit. They're gonna question our credibility if we aren't digging a bit, but it's just sort of interesting, you know, whether it was wondering where there's anything kind of, you know, offline or whatever that, you know, I think we're perhaps looking at LinkedIn profiles a bit more thoroughly than we might have done, you know, before and, you know, everybody's always said to me, you know, that sort of social media, sort of, oh, recruiters look at social media in liberal, the profile, I've got to be honest, we have never really looked at that, until recently, because it's now it now feels like an important signal on the basis, we're not getting other signals.

Leon Milns  24:25

So I said, you're looking at their social media.

Tim Barlow  24:29

Yeah, I know, they'll be looking at hours, but let's not talk about that. The it's, I you know, I'm actually finding I'm using the social signals more than I was previously, simply because there's a shortage of other signals. Whereas before, I would always trust our process as opposed to over what somebody may or may not be saying on LinkedIn or, you know, or anywhere else.

Robert Craven  24:59

Pete have asked questions or things relevant to that. Pete, you want to share?

Pete  25:09

Hello, hi. Yeah. You mentioned about compelling culture. And I think probably we all have different views on what that consists of. But I just thought, from your first hand experience of the candidates, you and your team are talking to, what are the key ingredients? What makes a compelling culture? And also, how do we demonstrate that during the recruitment process? Obviously, your website's a good place to start, but in sort of showing some things that are going on, but yeah, how do we do that? How do we demonstrate that we have this compelling culture?

Leon Milns  25:40

Yeah, good question. So I think cultures have had to shift and evolve and adapt pre pandemic to now obviously, as we know, I think the whole working from home and flexibility is an absolute must as I said earlier, but I guess in addition to that, what is a compelling culture, I think all people or all talented individuals want to work in an environment where they are really empowered to do the job that we are paying them to do. So giving them that flexibility to do that within obviously a timeframe. That's been agreed. So none of the sort of micro management that might well have taken place beforehand. I mean, if there's a project that needs to be done, define what it is define what everyone's role within that project, is what timescale is, off, you go go and deliver it, if you've got a problem, put your hand up time thing, I think that whole feeling of being an adult and being trusted and empowered to do your role is more paramount than ever. So working within that framework is absolutely crucial. I also think that feeling of valued culture is really important. People want to know that their contribution is being viewed and being shared and being noted. So I think because people are working remotely, that's more important than ever to communicate in whatever weekly stand ups you have, or weekly meetings explain. Yeah I think cultures have always been defined top downs, but I think it's got to come bottom up and top down now. But I think communication within a culture is absolutely crucial. So that everyone knows what's going on. If you are working in a remote business now that you don't just have the Add hot water, water cooler conversations, where people say, Oh, we this is where this project and this and that. Yeah, you can see it on Slack or whatever channel you're at. But so leading from the front and communicating this is what's going on. This is who's contributing. These are the challenges we've all got at the moment, I think are absolutely crucial. And they're the kind of businesses that I see that are doing really well in terms of retaining the very best people because it's completely an inclusive culture. It's not a leadership team and a Domino's type culture. It's a whole mix of a homogenised one size fits all culture that everyone is contributing to.

Pete  28:15

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no, that does. And then sort of the second part of my question is how you get how you convey that during a recruitment process? I mean, other than verbally, during an interview, and whatever. There's probably not a magic answer to that.

Leon Milns  28:30

Yeah. I think getting as many people involved as possible at different levels, within your business, to communicate that I don't know what you're interviewing, or attraction process looks like. But the more people that you can get involved from your side, at different levels in the business, who live and breathe the culture who can therefore articulate that with them and vigour to people? Because it comes naturally to them. Yes, that is what is authentic. And that will really resonate with, if you're, if I'm being interviewed by you and your team, and I ask you about what other culture you sell, then he'll come in and tell you what it's all about, and hope that fire that passion, you know, them saying, Well, this is what happens, this is how we work. It's completely, you know, open culture, that sort of inclusive culture. And so I would always say involve as many people as possible, I know time is at a premium. But involving several different people is the difference between getting that candidate or not getting that candidate. Hopefully, that'll be a great return on investment, short, medium long term for you and your colleagues in the business. So at the end of the day, getting the very best people is only going to augment the kind of work that everyone does in the business.

Robert Craven  29:50

Two questions. I got one from Tim Barlow, but before that is another one which is what is your view on videos of hi here we are at X, Y, Zed? Isn't this a great place to be? The kind of as part of the attraction recruitment process, having the internal videos to show to people?

Leon Milns  30:09

It's all very subjective, isn't it? I mean, I've seen some businesses that I think look great. And I've seen some that I just think are downright cheesy. So that's such a hard thing to do, you know, because what might really attract someone might be someone that doesn't look great, it's all a bit too cliched. I guess it all depends on the quality of the video, the content goes in.

Robert Craven  30:40

I guess my problem, I guess my point would be the culture lead to leaks out like radioactivity. So if you let people do a really cheesy, low value, embarrassing video, that tells you an awful lot about the agency. And on the other hand, if the agency has something beautifully produced, I spent 20,000 pounds with a production company doing that tells you something else about how they're trying to communicate their culture. So if you're reading between the lines, you can pick up quite a lot.

Leon Milns  31:11

Yeah. So yeah, we're gonna sit on the fence with that one, to be honest, don't as you said, Robert dunwell. It could be in another part of the attraction portfolio if you like, but done badly. That might be the one cross in the box that goes that makes that best company. Oh, Coke. Fancy that one?

Tim Barlow  31:30

I mean, you could levy that criticism at any piece of effort to your marketing or anything. To be honest, Yeah, there's not a good reason not to do it.

Robert Craven  31:43

What was your question, Tim?

Tim Barlow  31:45

I just wanna, is the tie changing a little? Are you seeing any sort of green shoots or sort of slight, just slight changes? It feels like we've been interviewing a lot more in the last couple of weeks. And we have been for a while. And I was just wondering whether that's, you know, just us or whether it's?

Leon Milns  32:07

Yeah, so we are, as we are hopefully Touchwood, getting back to some, you know, life before COVID, as we once knew it, there are more and more people that are prepared to have conversations with us about opportunities, whereas beforehand, maybe 6, 9, 12 months ago, there simply weren't. So yes, there are more people presenting themselves. But on the flip side of that, there's a few more macro things going on in the world that are making people think, hang on a minute, we're about to go into the global war. So the scales are a bit like that, at the moment, people are prepared to have conversations and people are, as I say, will only look for the very best opportunities that align with exactly what their aspirations are, and the kind of work and kind of environment so we are definitely seeing that.

Tim Barlow  33:04

Is it was your gut telling you that is that people sort of coming out of that hibernation period? So essentially, it's just going to, you know, it's going to be one person's going to be plucked out of an agency and put into another one and then that the circle is going to just keep going, or is it a situation where actually people who agencies you have been recruiting are beginning to say, actually, we're not sure we want to recruit anymore.

Leon Milns  33:41

So we are still seeing the demand across agencies looking for talent. There's still going to there's still, the trend is still going like that, because there's so much, so many businesses out there. And people agencies are winning lots of clients. And, yeah, I guess there are, as I said, and as you said, there are more people who are willing to interview, but they still have the pick of 2, 3, 4 agencies to choose from. Do I see that slowing down in the short term? What's the short term 3, 6, 9 months? Probably not in the next three to six months? Because of the backlog of demands to hire. People that were agencies that have been looking for 12 months are people? Yeah, and they've had vacancies for 6, 9, 12 months. So I guess until that backlog has been washed up, we're still going to see that demand.

Tim Barlow  34:42

And in terms of the you know, those macro factors, are you seeing those impinge on the market at all yet? Or is that sort of something that sort of if people are burying their heads in the sand on it sort of over It has, you know, a little bit like the crop, the cost of living crisis sort of feel like it's that employers seem to be much more aware of it than the employees at home. But I know that's gonna change pretty pretty soon.

Leon Milns  35:12

We've not seen any. Thankfully, none of the business that we've been working on has been shelved off the back of what's, what potentially might happen. From that perspective. We have seen it a Mini and Mini sort of simmering in terms of people saying we're a little bit nervous about the wider global context. So in terms of the previous speed or necessity to move from one job to another, as has died down a little bit. I'm not saying that's across the board, but it has been flagged over the past couple of weeks or so in our meetings that there is definitely a bit of nervousness and maybe a little bit more growing nervousness among people. That's with employees looking to move from one business to another. We've not seen it with employers hiring employers are still all going home. We've not had any assignments that have been put on ice off the back of what's going on. People are still absolutely but it's just candidates are being some are being a little bit more nervous, a little bit more jittery about it.

Tim Barlow  36:17

And are those jitters in terms of their feeling like they need that it's forcing them to make a move or forcing them to stay put?

Leon Milns  36:26

Stay put more and more over to stay put. Not a massive percentage but enough for us to be sitting at a weekly meeting going. We are seeing a little bit more of that kind of nervousness.

Robert Craven  36:44

Peter Belka says right. Do you want to share the question, Peter?

Speaker 5  36:50

Of course. Hello. Right now we are planning our how we should share our company culture on social media on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn. And right now we are starting to build some structure. We are planning everything. And we are thinking if something happens right now, what's interesting, we should share it right now? Or we should wait till we have some structure and basics prepared? It can backfire or we should start sharing content right now?

Leon Milns  37:29

Well, I guess it all depends on what your timescales are so higher, etc, how that aligns with the strategy. But my mindset would always be get out there sooner rather than later, something out there is better than nothing out there, have something in that shot window that might start gently seducing people and thinking God, that's interesting. And yeah, driving that level of curiosity. Because mine mindset is better that something's out there that you might have the opportunity to increase your opportunity to speak to more people than not. So definitely check it out there. And you know, what's the worst that's gonna happen, you're gonna have a queue of 3, 4, 5, 6 people that might want to speak to you, which is a lovely problem to have.

Speaker 5  38:21

Okay, thank you.

Robert Craven  38:24

Back to Tim, to me, another one there. Put your on mute.

Tim Barlow  38:32

Trainee market. I know, it's not your market, really. But I'm wondering whether you've got any insights on it, that it feels like part of the problem. If I take PPC as an example, you know, part of the problem in the market is there's just not enough people in the market. And, you know, I sort of sit there thinking, do we have ourselves to blame on this one and the fact that, you know, we just none of us are abroad, most of us just aren't investing enough in training. But it just sort of wondered if you've got any insights as to, you know, are people now starting to invest in graduates and bring them through perhaps more than they were a year ago, you know, back even to normal, you know, pre pandemic levels.

Leon Milns  39:17

This anecdotal again, Tim, I'm not got any sort of data to support this. But I think the bigger networks, agencies that have got bigger coffers than smaller independents can afford to do that. But as we all know, as smaller independent businesses, we just don't have that kind of cash sloshing around to invest in that on the basis that people might come along, do 6, 9, 12 months and then go thanks for that. I've taken up all that knowledge and now when I go and work for a big global player is going to pay me 10 grand more than you can offer me so.

Tim Barlow  39:54

I mean, that argument is probably always been there. I'm not sure I completely agree with it. In fact, I think it's called small businesses that we train. But one thing that I think may have changed and may be a sort of symptom of the current situation is the difficulty of training people remotely. And whether that is Compounding the problem of a lap, you know, and is going to compound the problems further with that with a lack of talent, because there's not much training going on. You know, if that's something that you've sent to me.

Leon Milns  40:35

I haven't seen that, where I can say definitively, but I definitely agree with the remoteness of working, that definitely does hinder the training. I think that just the daily on the job being in the office that yeah, that kind of vicarious learning and training. We're all lacking? Aren't we all? You know, I look back to my 20s. And I love being in a big business surrounded by people of all different levels, where you just hear them on the phone, and you pick that up, you're you can do it, you know, you learn how to deal with a difficult situation, because you've heard it, but I definitely think that is hindering the growth of the younger people or the next generation of talent that are coming through. Yeah, it's impossible, isn't it? If you're sitting in a room by yourself? You weren't, you're not naturally sort of soaking things up by this, I could only say it being a harmful thing. Yeah.

Tim Barlow  41:24

And Are either of you seeing companies really invest in a sort of a new way of training as a sort of permanent way? Or is there a little bit of limbo going on where we're all you know, we're sort of hoping maybe people are going to come back to the office a bit more, and therefore just wait to wait until that happens? You know, it could be one thing, one mindset, it could be adopted versus accepting and getting on?

Leon Milns  41:46

Yeah, again, I've got no silver bullet to share on that. But I will make a note and go back to my team and ask them, which businesses we are partnering with that might have cultivated a new age sort of training schedule if there are any ideas that we can share with you? I'll definitely make a note of that and report backed by Robert, if that's okay. Because I think that's for us all. I think that's a really interesting point.

Tim Barlow  42:11

Robert, are you seeing anything on those?

Robert Craven  42:13

Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, again, we all just have our little segments and our little slices. I think the concern that people have, as you quite rightly say, Tim, is you get some 22 year old, who's got loads of ambition, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they're only in the office two days a week, there is no way they can learn, they can get up to speed, no matter how much online teaching and how many programmes you've got created, and how often you send them off to online programmes. There is, you know, as Leon said, there's kind of no replacement from rubbing shoulders with the head of programmatic or hearing the conversations that happen with clients or being in the room when they're talking to clients. This thing that we have here with screens, only gives I mean, it's hugely transactionally efficient, but as efficient, you know, and we don't want to be efficient anymore, you want to be effective, and you just, you just miss all the nuance. So I think the training is a real issue. And I think ironically, the kids are shooting themselves in the foot by saying I want to be working from home three days a week. Because they're just never going to engage in the culture, and they're never going to learn they're never going to absorb the culture and absorb how we do things, which is everything from please don't wear white socks in front of a client, you know, all the way through to how to make a decent cup of coffee, you know, because I mean, there are some really basic skills we have to give graduates

Tim Barlow  43:54

Are really data, Robert.

Robert Craven  43:57

It is...

Tim Barlow  44:00

... just the White Sox.

Leon Milns  44:02

What's wrong with sandals?

Robert Craven  44:05

We got a question here. What wage inflation are you seeing later on? And is it possible, is this sustainable? Or will the bubble burst at some point?

Leon Milns  44:21

So I mean, our general advice, or what we've seen over a period of time has been people, but people look at people leaving one business and joining another business is in the region of approx 10% to 15% Max, which I think which is a reasonable sort of financial incentive to leave from one bid from one business to join another and I guess that's the advice that we tend to say to our clients, you know, when you're interviewing someone, obviously this is what they're earning. This is the general expectation blah, blah, blah, blah, but you Yeah, what we have seen is absolutely mind blowing kind of offers that people have had where, you know, they're earning 40-45k, and they're getting off at 70-75-80k. Just my mind blowing.

Robert Craven  45:18

But when you hire these people you don't get the increase in effectiveness, if that makes sense. So, so the client has to pay. So you end up with our wage bill was a million pounds, it's now 1.2 million pounds in order for us to accommodate the additional ways below an extra 200k. Where's that going to come from?

Leon Milns  45:42

Yeah, in essence, God, if you had that example of the 40 45k, or in essence, they might well be a 50 55k candlelit move from one business to another. But as you say, you're paying them 30k More than market rates. So you're driving up that wage bill. And as you say, are you going to get the ROI from someone who is coming in at that level, when in fact, in reality, they are a 50k ish candidate, and that's the impact that they're going to inject into a business. And that's the cycle that we're seeing now that these bigger bear masks in the industry, putting these massive salaries on people's heads, which is just driving, you know, driving nuts kind of expectations across people. I've not seen it like this before in 20 years of being in the industry. So I don't know how we're going to how we as business owners are going to slow that down or realign it. I don't know what is going to make the bubble burst, to be perfectly honest.

Robert Craven  46:42

And Tim mentions four days a week. What are your thoughts on that? The thing is a lot of that.

Leon Milns  46:50

Well, the first. The first I heard of it was Johnny Tooze and the guys, I think they launched that made a big splash about what must have been what, four or five years ago. Now. I mean, I've been aware that all the time has gone to be honest with you. But they made a massive play of it years ago. And I think it worked really, really well for them. And quite a lot of other agencies have followed suit. And now our mutual friend John Redman made the big player when he launched his business, and I think, I don't know, I don't know whether that's worked for him, I assume it has worked for him. But I think it is an attractive point for people. But within those four days, what are you expected to do? Are you expected to work 12-14-15-16 hour days to get the work done? Or, you know, what are the dynamics of it, do half the business work Monday and half the business take Friday off? I think personally, I think if you can just have an adult working culture, whereby you get the work done whenever you get it done on the working week. I think that is more attractive. But for instance, I say, having said that a large part of our working team of our team are working or working mothers who do a four day a week, and they're the most successful, the most productive in my business. So what do I know, you know, they want the flexible, you know, the flexible time, so they can have a bit more of a work life balance, and they're nailing it. So if it's working for them, why can't it work for you for other businesses? I guess with all this, it's about having the right people in the right seats, you get the right people who are aligned with the vision that you've got, who know what that they know what their role is, and are driven and hungry to achieve it and put their hands up if they got a problem. That's where you can achieve great things.

Robert Craven  48:48

Right, we're about to run out of time. So if you've got any burning questions, let's hear them. Let me just summarise what your key points are, which I'm reading, shortage of talent and use demand. One thing about retention and how on earth do you stop people from jumping ship? You know, and I think that kind of links into your compelling culture thing, which obviously is internally works and externally works, the whole affordability thing, but how on earth do we run an agency with a wage bill which has just gone up 15 or 20%? And will that stop? There's something around how you in the same way that you pitch your business to a client that you should be pitching your business to a candidate same perhaps a slightly different because it's a similar deck, but not quite the same. And this sense of Creating a compelling culture not just because you want to do that, but because that's I think that's the thing for me. That's what people are looking for. They're looking they are searching for evidence and proof that your workplace is a place where they'll feel comfortable. Your workplace is a place that kind of understands what you're doing. Any more questions for later on? Any more questions in the room? If so, put your hand up or shout now. Wow, we've silenced them. Anything. That's fantastic.

Leon Milns  50:39

That's a good sign.

Robert Craven  50:40

I think it's a good sign now. So any final thoughts from you later on as we start wrapping things up.

Leon Milns  50:48

Just stick at it. stick at it. Make sure as I said to Peter earlier, make sure your shot window is glistening, make sure that you're trying to magnetise people to want to come and talk to you. Because of the uniqueness of what you're doing or the direction of travel you're heading in. There's no one had an answer. It is literally a smorgasbord of just make sure you've got a great culture, try and work with great clients, which some have got a bit of meaningful purpose behind them. Be authentic, you know, just be open, honest and authentic. People want to work for authentic and inspiring people. And try and just make your agency great place to work out still, whether it is remotely or in person, don't forget the value of getting people together and going for a walk or Laser Quest or just going for going and getting pissed, you know, just bring back the sense of normal pneus in your businesses. And we had a sit down yesterday, our meeting was the right guy to the end of the quarter, what's I want to do, everyone's stepped down and said we want to get going at pest like brilliant, let's get a date where we can always go out and get a pest of the afternoon and do karaoke. That was what they said they want to go and do that. So just that let's not forget pre pre-pandemic stuff we asked, we want to get back to normal life. So I guess a nice blend of all of those things will hopefully enable you to have that competitive edge, find great people. And you know what, just try and keep enjoying it. I know it's hard. It's hard for us as well, trying to find people. But we did make the decision of setting up our own businesses. Don't forget to enjoy it. Because it can be bloody hard. But hopefully there's more fun. We're getting out of it more than not.

Robert Craven  52:42

Brilliant. Brilliant. Absolutely love it. I'm going to say that's going to be kind of the formal conclusion. I am going to stay online. So if people want to talk to us in a smaller setting, rather than in public with the record button on so we will turn the record button off. So all it's left to me right now is to say thank you for being absolutely great, being open and honest about your view. And it's been really helpful for everyone on the call. So just upon very big. Thank you very much and we'll stay on the line. Thank you.

Leon Milns  53:16

Thanks. Thanks for having me.