Video - Positive Mental Wealth for Digital Agency Leaders with Mike Pagan
VIDEO: 38:24 mins
AUTHOR: Mike Pagan and Robert Craven
In this GYDA Talks, Robert talks to Mike Pagan. Mike is an expert in helping you achieve positive mental wealth through building hand-picked support networks. Surround yourself with your personalised Mental Wealth team, become happier in life, be more successful in business, and become mentally and physically stronger to navigate the path ahead.
Robert and Mike discuss:
Why Mental Wealth?
Mental Wealth not Health
How does this apply to the agency owner?
The four areas:
Sorting your Self as a priority
Getting a coach
Getting a professional team
Masterminding
How does this apply to running your team?
Transcription:
Robert Craven 00:36
Hello, and welcome to the GYDA initiative. And I'm absolutely delighted to have with me someone who I've known for an awful long time, in a good way. And that's Mike Pagan. So Mike, rather I introduce you, because maybe my introduction is exactly up to date, it could be awesome that viewers know who is Mike Pagan and why they might know you.
Mike Pagan 00:59
Okay, well, thank you for having me, Robert. Why do I know you? Back in the day, we did a whole lot of work together. So I know. Respectfully, yes, you were a mentor for me as well, there is a phrase that I use, but So hence, there's a lot of history there. But why would people know me? I've talked for many years about faffing about and productivity and performance. I've run a coaching performance business for nearly 20 years now. And you can tell with this youthful look, it's true. And recently, I've published my fourth book, according to the spin doctors, and which is all on mental wealth. So that's another area which I know we're going to talk more about today. So other things that I've done well, one day my parents gave birth to me. You don't want to hear that, but either way, I promised I will make this interesting, challenging, and I know you'll be provoking as well.
Robert Craven 01:55
Good. Okay, so let's talk about the book. So whenever I show the book to people, I go, Oh, yeah, mental health and you don't know about mental wealth. And they go, Oh, yeah. Mental Health. And you know, the book title is not and he must have it's not mental health is mental wealth. So I mean, just let us know, What's the support? What's the reason?
Mike Pagan 02:26
Clearly, the title is a play on the phrase mental health. So the first thing I will say is, I am not a mental health expert, and I'm not a counsellor. So mental health, there are many 1000s of people doing brilliant work in the field of mental health. And there needs to be more. But that aside, my focus is on mental wealth, which is about having the right support network around you, that is proactive and truly has your back. And what I mean by that is there's a lot of noise, there's a lot of information, there's loads of people through social media and everything else, who distract us. And we think they've got our support, or we've got their support. But the reality is, when something hits the fan, or the speed bumps along the way, they evaporate, they're not there. So it's who truly has your back, and is committed to you to help you through your professional and personal journey. Enjoy life, have more fun, have more success through that process.
Robert Craven 03:23
Because I mean, especially as we're, theoretically speaking, post COVID. But we'll see about that. The mental health thing has been very much an agency's has been we need to look after our staff, we need to make sure that they're not sitting on a bed with a ironing board in front of the laptop on top of that, and they don't see an order and they're going and they're kind of losing the plot. But it's kind of like you're saying that mental health isn't or mental health problems. Your look, I think what I'm saying is you're looking at the causes of kind of mental health issues rather than necessarily sorting a mental health problem out, which I think was what people have been talking about most of the time.
Mike Pagan 04:13
Yeah, absolutely. So this is about, if you think of mental wealth, obviously, wealth is a title there that I had to fight with my publishers to use, because they said, Oh, yeah, but you put wealth in the title that means that is going to get stuck in the finance section. But it's clearly not that. But if you think of a mental wealth bank account, are we putting the right stuff into that account, so that when the things go wrong when we have challenges because every single one of us is on the mental health spectrum at any one time. You can wake up one day feeling amazing the next day feeling atrocious for whatever reason that's going on in your world. And so we're all on that spectrum, and I believe that the more we have credit and strength within our mental wealth and A bank account with women are male mental wealth team and support network, that chances are that those yo yo things that you remember the build hospital monitors that bit up and down, I believe that we can reduce the swing on those. So the drop, the challenge is we can bounce back up far more effectively.
Robert Craven 05:24
So this is I mean, it's similar to Stephen Covey's. Stephen Covey talked about Seven Habits he talked about like oil, tins, physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, and he said that they were all like muscles unless you were chopping them up, if any one of them became empty, then the whole thing fell apart. But that's kind of as an individual. But what you're saying, I think, is that you can set up the team, maybe too strong a word, but set up the support relationships around you. So it isn't just someone giving you a smile or a hug on Facebook, but actually, the real stuff.
Mike Pagan 06:08
Yeah, I like to use the word they're real. This is the real stuff, personal professional success with the right support network, because the biggest challenge, I believe, is isolation. And now before the pandemic and everything else, only a percentage, a smaller percentage of the population knew what isolation was. And they were the ones who were either in prison who got all the isolation was because in solitary confinement, or they were at the top of businesses, be they five employees or 50,000 employees, where you're at the top and you're kind of isolated up there, because you don't know who to turn to who's got your back, who's going to support you, your wife or husband doesn't really know what you do necessarily. Your mates in the pub or in the club will always say, oh, go for it might cause you land on your feet. So suddenly, you're in that position of isolation of who to turn to, with the challenge of the planet pandemic and the multiple lockdowns across the UK and across the world. People have learned what isolation is. And it's just not having anybody to turn to not knowing who really is there. Because and when we focus on isolation, I believe it kills creativity and prevents decision making. And as a result of that can then have a detrimental effect on our mental health and well being. Because we get into that cycle of just doom and gloom and more problems and challenges going along. And if we're not making decisions, then we faff about to use my language or procrastinate more. And that I mean, in certain parts of the US procrastination is now designated as an illness, because it has a direct correlation to stress and anxiety.
Robert Craven 07:48
So let's just take this apart slightly. So let's just talk about first let's just talk about this, in terms of being someone who runs a business, a business owner, in terms of isolation can kill creativity, isolation kills creativity, and prevents decision making. And secondly, after I'd like to talk about how we apply that kind of mantra to our team. So firstly, for people running a business, isolation kills creativity and prevents decision making. Is that really what you believe?
Mike Pagan 08:26
Yeah, because I know, when I sit in my man cave that I'm fortunate enough to have, and I'm just bouncing ideas around inside my head. I know when I'm in a room with other people, and that we're trying to find a direction or solution. Five brains is better than one. So this creativity suddenly enhances and produces more serotonin than all the other words we can bring in. But what for me individually and non-scientifically, I know that I bounce better off other people, because I'm not isolated. When I'm sitting there. I can get distracted by other noises. You look at the number of people who sit on Zoom and team meetings nowadays. And as I'm talking to you now through a camera lens, the size of my fingernail, I've got multiple screens open, or have I, I'm not distracted by anything other than your face, Robert, clearly. But it's that whole process of people that are truly present, they're going off all over the place. And when you're sitting there in an environment with people around you, you know, whether they're engaged, whether they're not engaged, and you're able to talk and you're able to bounce ideas, and then off the back of that we can get more creative solutions. So if we're reading between the lines, does isolation kill creativity? The answer could be no it doesn't. Black and white, but there's always grey and that's where my point here is. It can not be nice, acetylated can be better for your creativity than sitting in your spare bedroom on the edge of the bed, wearing your pyjamas, having a cat next year, Netflix on in the background, that is not an environment for the best creativity that we can work with.
Robert Craven 10:17
Do you think that applies? I mean, do you think you're the kind of mantra applies to introverts as much as extroverts, and I get it for extroverts, if you're someone who's been brought up in a football team or a rugby team and going out Friday night, Saturday night, and then suddenly, boom, you don't see anyone, I totally get that. And I also totally get, you know, young members of staff who come to work to socialise, to be by the water cooler to be out on a Friday night with a team, to suddenly they're isolated, but there are plenty of introverts who are quite happy on their own.
Mike Pagan 10:55
Oh, totally and obviously, this whole process will have a greater or lesser effect depending on the individual. I demonstrate extrovert tendencies, but actually I do have a lot of introverts elements to me. So it's that whole thing of yeah, you turn it on in the big environment, that is the good old chameleon when you walk into a room, but actually, naturally, that may not be the place versus the true introvert who's standing next to the extrovert staring next to the exit, sorry, next to the extrovert, definitely standing next to the exit, looking at the phone waiting for the fire alarm to go off. It's having that balance of knowing where you get your best ideas and how you can feed off other people and develop and get stronger. And that part of helping because we're not making decisions, then that means we are potentially not going to be moving forward. And if we're making decisions, good, bad or indifferent. Making decisions is enabling us to move forward. And so for me, and I reflect this through my lens, when I have a proactive support team around me, helping me make decisions, I make better decisions. When I have a poor support team around me as I have had in the past at times, then I make poor decisions. And, Robert, you from our history, you remember I did some property investing. Well, I'm pleased to say that one of the properties I bought in Cyprus completed last year, 14 years after I put the deposit down. That was because I didn't have the right support network around me, which cost me a lot of money, time, energy and heartache. And all the things that go with it. Because I was making decisions in isolation, without the right people asking better questions than I was able to ask on my own.
Robert Craven 12:52
Okay, so the business owner is going to say to you, right, so you think I need I guess an accountant or lawyer or a coach, I don't know, what's your team that you have around you, Mike?
Mike Pagan 13:11
I break it into four areas. So first of all, I talked about the self care team. And there's a lot of talk nowadays about self care and well being. But this is about translating it. So it's relevant for you the individual. So in my world, I had to learn how to become number one. Now, you might think that sounds really trite, and so on. But I've jokingly always said that I'm number six in my house, why three kids and a dog all come above me. And the reality check attached to that was, well, if I'm not in a firing fit, energetic place, then I'm not necessarily going to be able to support the family in the way I would like to or want to turn that into a different reality. We'll hold on a second. I'm not used to putting myself in number one and being selfish because I'd want to put everybody else first. So changing that mindset around to where I was in my 20s, where I had no responsibilities didn't give a damn about anybody or anything else. But what I wanted to do, then, okay, it's going into that mindset of being selfish, but not selfish to the point of being ugly to other people just looking after number one first. And that for me has come through all the weird, stupid stuff I do. Weekend Warrior nonsense. Because I've gotten from a sporting background, I still do lots of sport, and even to the point of a small event I did a few years ago where we were the fastest men's full relay team to swim the English Channel, and stupid, but that came from the fact of I'd never done open water swimming before I stepped into this with a team of others. We achieved it. It was brilliant, but since then, I still do a whole load of open water swimming because I love the active meditation and mindfulness that I get from being in lakes and rivers and seas, which you don't get in other environments and getting out having just done that monotony, that cumulative effect of consistent action. I get out, my brain is sharp, I've had all sorts of ideas popping in and debating, and then other times where I've just been counting strokes to get through that process. So it's the long repetitive actions in an active environment works for me, you'll never find me sitting on the edge of a bed with my legs crossed, saying on, because that doesn't work for me.
Robert Craven 15:37
I just thought I was gonna get more of my cars, because you use these two words, I thought we were gonna get through this without mentioning which are meditation and mindfulness. And I thought you were gonna use, we could maybe get through this without mentioning. I think that whole sense of getting hold of yourself and understanding who you are, and what you are. And sorting yourself out is really important. I was just curious to see when we'd mentioned those words. So that's looking after you got that for four areas, you're saying, for your team.
Mike Pagan 16:18
Yes, so the self care side of things, which is taking, and clearly if you need other people, so the nutritionist, the Fit physical trainer, the other elements that then we bring those people on board when we need them. Next area is the coach. Clearly, I would say that, because that's been my career for the last 20 years. But actually, that stems from the work I've done with professional and elite sportsmen and women transitioning to their life after their professional career. So they had 35 people keeping them on the track in the pitch on the pool, on the pitch in the pool, you know what I mean? And then the guillotine comes down. And none of those people in that team are fit for purpose for their way forward. And they've had coaches getting those marginal gains and all the extras out of them. And I know full well, when I have somebody external, asking better questions of me than I can of myself, I will achieve more. And that challenge. So were those sports men and women, that they needed a different form of coaching, a different form of support to help them get stronger for what was coming next, having transitioned from a former life, that is no longer that current life. And that coaching part of it is, we can spend lots of time sort of having mentors saying learn from my journey or consultant saying, here's the prescription journey, you could say, but the coach is actually helping people unlock the path that they want to go down. And they're going to commit to, and then challenge them about their self sabotage habits along the way that are preventing them from achieving what they want to do.
Robert Craven 17:56
Right. So look, after myself, put myself number one, I'll get myself. I see myself as needing to be fit. Got that? The coaching piece. Totally understand that. And do you differentiate between coach, counsellor, consultant, mentor, or any other of those words?
Mike Pagan 18:19
Yeah. But for me, the counsellor will dig into your life history, past history, everything. That's what you are where you are today, and help you unlock and uncover. The consultant will give you a prescription of what they think you should do having done an analysis on your business or whatever your situation, then if you pay them more, they'll implement it. And if it's successful, they'll take the credit for if it fails, it's the consultants fault. The mentor is there to sort of learn from my journey and experience of how I got from A to Zed or A to B, and then the coach, is that right? blank piece of paper? Where are we trying to get you to? What are the options available, let's investigate the ones that you really want to focus on and see if we can find some optimised solutions that you're willing to commit to seeing through.
Robert Craven 19:15
So accountability comes for you. Accountability is a large part of that.
Mike Pagan 19:19
Where you get a certain amount of accountability from the coach. But then the third area is the professional team, which we touched on earlier already. But the fourth part is the peer support group, the mastermind group, and that is where you get brutal, honest and unsubtle accountability and support and loving and help along the way.
Robert Craven 19:45
Talk to us more about your so people many of the people listening will know me from the mastermind groups that I run and you run mastermind groups, it's almost like a flavour of the month, and they're all slightly different than We all have a different intensity between how often you meet accountability sighs what's on and what's off the agenda and stuff. So what's your kind of idea about what a mastermind group should be?
Mike Pagan 20:14
My take on it if I've taken you through my first one that I set up and it's sort of learning through that environment. Because yes, there are many formats out there. People that are new to masterminding will get seduced by the Napoleon Hill Think and Grow Rich. Whereas actually, it was the brummies in the UK that set it up with the lunar society. But I'm not going to get into that debate today. Because love that especially when you're working with certain businesses. But for me, the mastermind environment. The first one I set up, we agreed to meet 10 times a year. So it was a monthly mastermind group, it was an hour and a half per business per individual. And there were six of us in the room. So that means you then have 15 minutes of a bit of an update. What's going on? For half an hour ish on opportunities, problems, challenges, what's happening, during which time the other people around the team are challenging and provoking and asking better questions, not providing solutions, just asking questions, then we go into a bit of a solution finding debate discussion and how that comes together. In the final 15 minutes, the consultants, as in the other people around the table, are sharing what they would do next, if they were in your shoes. And the final five minutes is, my name is Mike, thank you very much for your input. These are the three things I will do before we meet next month. And even if you're doing those at two o'clock in the morning, before meeting up, that's okay, because you've done them. So it's that accountability, you have to bring it to the party, so that when you meet the next time, this is the update, this is where we're going, this is what's working. And for me, it moves from just being professional and business focused, because these people become close friends and allies. They're asking really intimate questions. Robert, I'm sure you've heard this story before that the person who had a severe diet cancer diagnosis, and he went to his mastermind group, before he even spoke to his family, because he just had to work out how he was going to confront this next challenge that he was facing. And that for me is where the mastermind becomes so powerful, because external views, you're in the hot seat, then you're in the consultants seat. And a lot of the time for me, I got as much learning when I was consulting and challenging as I was in the hot seat. Because I'm asking questions that actually I'm being a complete hypocrite because I'm not actually doing what I'm challenging the person in the hot seat over. So I take more actions as a result of that. And it becomes very, very powerful and self fulfilling along the way.
Robert Craven 22:59
And you said six people, so that's nine hours plus breaks. So is that one day or day and a half?
Mike Pagan 23:05
That's one day you start off first thing in the morning, go through till six o'clock yet you can work it in that hour and a half, but per person, it's tight, but it just gives you it sets the scene of what you're actually going to do and achieve. And it does mean that whoever's facilitating that monthly meeting because you rotate the lead facilitator, so no one person owns it. But it means that if somebody has a tendency to go off on tangents and waffles and whatever else, you keep them on track, you keep them focused, and then it moves on.
Robert Craven 23:43
Right. Okay, so I get that. So for a business owner. Yeah, put yourself first in brackets and the nicest possible way. Bits of coach, get the professional team around you mastermind. And I think lots and lots and lots of own founders do some version of that, plus or minus they may have, they may just use a solicitor when they need more they may work their way through coach, whatever it is. So if you just flip that in terms of how we put in place, the same ethos, but in terms of for our team, so we've got a team. So we've got a team of 20 people, we've got all this work from home, not work from home shenanigans going on. We've got you know, a senior team that we need to be talking to regularly and we need to be motivating and likewise, quite a large team of people doing a lot of the tough work within the business. So how do we take the book and apply it kind of ethos and principles to the team, clearly we can't put everyone in a mastermind group?
Mike Pagan 25:06
There's different types of the mastermind, we talked about sort of the business leaders mastermind. But if there's the other language of peer coaching or peer support groups, is where those can be set up with projects in mind. Where if you've got 20 in a team, there could be five people that you put together in a peer group, because there's a project they're working on. And they are going to therefore bounce ideas and support each other. What one of the things that I've found, and specifically as a digital agency that I work with, and they've coming out of the pandemic, they've gone to three and two or two and three days hybrid in the office per week, mandatory Fridays, because then everybody comes in on the Friday, and the beer fridge opens at two o'clock, or whatever it is on a Friday. And then it just brings that sense of camaraderie and sociable nature back together. And obviously, not everybody drinks, but it's the reason for being there. Because we want to talk about challenges and other things that are going on. And one of the parts of that that we really need to hone in on is understanding who is asking questions, who's supporting, and then those guys can all come together, support each other, and bounce ideas around. Because when we lose the plot, as does happen, we get busy, we get caught up, always spend too much time working at two o'clock in the morning with the cat on the bed and Netflix in the background. The challenge there is because that's not the best environment, I believe for creativity and best work, then levels of complacency come in. And standards can drop. And suddenly timelines are missed. And dates are missed. Or we start doing more than we should do and everything else. And we get project creep and everything else that steps in. And that needs to be kept under tight control. Because when that works, and that is done by setting the internal peer groups within the organisation focused on specific projects, then they look out for each other.
Robert Craven 27:15
So I'm just struggling slightly because in an earlier life, you talked about stop faffing around. And now you're kind of giving people permission to faff around in a way surely, how do the two both exist at the same time? Is there constructive faffing unconstructive faffing? Is that what we have?
Mike Pagan 27:43
Well, first thing for me if you recall language, faffing is the false art of feeling fulfilled, which is doing stuff that keeps you busy at best, rather than stuff that truly matters. That enhances that brings you along the way. So the self sabotage. And there is always that balance between when you're being overly productive and how that works. And I'm sure you've quoted many times the Chimp Paradox and the little voice in your head and everything else that goes with that. I know, for me, if I've put on certain types of music in the background, it will help me become more focused and more concentrated, because it's entertaining that side of my brain that wants to play. And if I'm not playing, then I'm able to get on with and focus. And I know that because there's people that I work very closely with, and they challenge and they hold me accountable because they know that how long it's going to take me to do a project and get things sorted, get it nailed down versus if I'm distracting myself and doing blatant distraction faffing about procrastination not achieving. So I need to keep focus, keep the direction held accountable by my team who are asking better questions of me than I do of myself. And that stops me from doing the little pretty things and chasing butterflies and other things, which so many of us do too much of the time.
Robert Craven 29:05
So I guess it's a bit like Tom Peters says to do hard is soft. In other words, to do technical stuff is relatively easy. But to do the soft stuff is hard. So he was saying the relationships and getting your brain in the right space. And truly being creative or innovative, rather than just coming up with new ideas is actually very, very hard. It's very, very difficult. And you can allow for the team to do that.
Mike Pagan 29:36
Following that abroad. But one of the key things that I'm running this with a number of businesses now is good old fashioned team building is becoming on Vogue, again, because people are working remotely or they've been isolated working, and they don't know each other the number of businesses that I'm talking to, as I'm sure you are, where people are meeting each other for the first time. I'm in the flesh, but they've been working together for 15 months. And this sense of team that has disappeared because the organisation has worked so remotely. And so half a day of facilitated Learning Challenge provocation solution finding for the organisation, followed by half a day of silly nonsense, going up high ropes, and others, that whole sense of camaraderie and building that back together is something that was got frowned upon, because it was, is it best usage of time? I now believe it's absolutely mandatory to have some framework in place. Because that will help the mental wealth of every single person in the team because they feel love, they feel a sense of belonging, they're enjoying what they're doing. And they know, like, and trust each other they're working with, they can see what Bob or Claire is like, under pressure in a strange environment or a silly environment. And then they also get the banter and the chemistry and the enjoyment of working with other people around them.
Robert Craven 31:10
And of course, you can combine that so you can have the away day, but it can be skiing, or you can have the rainy day. And it can be you know, you can be we're going to work in the morning. And then in the afternoon, we're going to go go karting or whatever the activity is, so now you can actually mix the two up. And I think that people have tried to do everything through bloody screens. And, as he said earlier, we don't know what else is going on around people, because we can't see that they've got Facebook on and stuff. But if there's ever a time for people to be kind of holding hands as one and grouping together, it's clearly now and I guess that's the trick within your culture of your organization's to be able to do that is to be able to have that blend, cool.
Mike Pagan 32:11
I mean, as we all know that if people are enjoying the work, they're enjoying the environment, they're enjoying the people, then they will produce and deliver more effectively and stay longer. In young industries such as the digital world, the turnover of staff can be high. So we need to make sure that there's a reason why people want to join a site for just the salary. It is the experience, it is the enjoyment.
Robert Craven 32:38
I think now more than ever, with all the big platforms, buying people left, right and centre, because there's lots going on at the moment. So Google, just say, what are you earning? Facebook or YouTube What are you earning? Oh, yeah, we can do that. We'll double that and also give you some shares. And so ordinary independent agencies are going. So we can't compete on price. But we can compete on why we do stuff. And we can compete on who we are and how we feel about each other. I think that becomes more and more important that people are going to a place that they want to go to do a job that they enjoy doing.
Mike Pagan 33:17
Example for you here, one of the clients that I work with at the moment, they don't have a holiday allowance, you have as much as you want, as long as your team delivers. So some years, you'll have people who will take a six week holiday, almost like a sabbatical still being paid. But the team is still working. When you get others in the team trying to sort of engineer it. So they almost go part time and have Mondays and Fridays off. That's different. Really, but again, that's an incentive. It gets people supportive. It involves a lot of trust, a lot of empowerment and a lot of respect on both parties there. Because then everybody works together. Because they know full well that Claire's going to be away for the month of January and February. So we need to manage that workload. Make sure it's all on top. And when Claire comes back, and before she goes, his Uber is productive and it makes the game work on the projects and pulls it together.
Robert Craven 34:19
We're pretty much out of time, Mike, but I need to ask you, I'd really like to know what your inverted commas, your pearls of wisdom. What are the things you find yourself saying to people quite a lot, what are the messages that you're trying to drill down into people's minds if a couple of years kind of your sweet thoughts?
Mike Pagan 34:43
Get a couple of things for you here. I do focus very much on the isolation piece. So it's knowing when you are isolated when you're sitting there and you realise I'm not asking the right questions, because historically people are Asking for help is seen as a sign of weakness. Firstly, actually asking for help is a challenge of asking better questions of other people. So that we can achieve more, have more fun and enjoy what we're doing. And that is so important is asking for help, help will come. And the more creative and the more you interest certain people, then the extended network of those others, when you ask them for help, will provide you with people that you never thought possible could help support you, as a direct result of getting that support network around you, then we can have more fun. If we have the confidence and the comfort to believe that the people behind us have truly got our back. We can make braver decisions, because we've already debated it with people who've asked those questions that we may or may not have thought of ourselves, we've got solutions, we've got possible opportunities, we've done the risk analysis. So if it doesn't work, we know how to bounce back. Or if it works in a framework that we hadn't considered before. We've got contingencies we can take on board. And that allows you to have more fun. So firstly, asking for help. Secondly, having more fun. And the final one here is that I believe it's absolutely our duty as human beings as good human beings to ask better questions of the people that we're talking to. So when you ask somebody if they're okay, and they come back with that ridiculous acronym, fine, then it's, we all know what that means. There's many different constructs of it. But if people turn around, say they're fine, we need to ask and dig deeper. Because everybody nowadays, sadly, is 1 ,2, 3 degrees away from a mental health disaster that's happened. And when you're asking those questions of the people, and they're saying things like fine, or you haven't spoken to them, or for a period of time, and your gut feel is saying, I really should have a conversation with whoever that person is, then pick up the phone, don't send them a text message, don't send them something on social media, pick up the phone, have a conversation, and reach out and support them. Because the primary objective one of my primary objectives of writing this book is I believe it will have the potential to change lives and save a life. So if by asking better questions of other people, helping people build up their mental wealth bank, so they've got the right support network around them, then we can have more fun, and we can save and change more people into constructive positives. Well balanced human beings having fun.
Robert Craven 37:40
What a perfect place to stop. Thank you so much for talking to us about the book and the thinking behind it. The links and URLs will come up afterwards. It's just left to me to say thank you very much for being a really great guest. Thank you very much, Mike.
Mike Pagan 37:58
Thank you for having me, Robert. It's been great to be on this side of grilling for Robert Craven, I don't know, probably not the right answer there. But it's a novelty. Thank you, sir.