Robert Craven Interviews Luke Quilter, Sleeping Giant Media
VIDEO:1:00:45
AUTHOR: Robert Craven and Luke Quilter
In this GYDA Talks, Robert talks to Luke Quilter of Sleeping Giant Media. Luke is Co-founder and CEO of Sleeping Giant Media and Giant Campus.
With an excess of over 15 years’ worth of experience in digital marketing, Luke currently runs three businesses based in Kent and regularly lectures, coaches and teaches his expertise. He specialises in search engine optimisation, pay per click advertising, social media, and business start-ups.
Robert and Luke discuss:
A new agency for smaller businesses
Differentiation
Training as part of the offer
The transformation curve
Response to covid-19
Who we are...
The purpose/authenticity and large business conundrum
The keys to success (process, people, culture + passion)
The re-start-up mentality
The future: what behaviours will change? How will they impact the business? How will we respond to the opportunities
The future is data and insights
Top tip: love it or get out!
To connect with Luke on LinkedIn Click Here.
Transcription:
Robert Craven 00:45
Hello, and welcome to the GYDA Talks. And today I'm absolutely delighted, absolutely delighted to have the legend. sensibly, because, legend to me, Luke Quilter. And Luke is a legend to me, because he's been on the speaking circuit, developing a really great reputation for someone who goes in and helps businesses understand digital and social media, but he has an agency behind that. So we're gonna find out loads more about that. Hello, Luke. Thank you for having me. Absolute pleasure. So without further ado, just just explain, because I know there's three businesses and there's a speaking, are seeking John to just explain to us what the Luke Quilter Empire is?
Luke Quilter 01:32
It's a small empire, if we can call it that. But so yes, we started 12 years ago, sleeping giant media, digital marketing agency. So we do paid search, SEO and social all about getting relevant traffic to our clients websites. And that was our first business that we've kind of set up myself and business partner, NC clock, who we were previously at Holiday extras and kind of leaped out of that into business and into the digital world. And we've grown that business. From the dining we've gone full circle now because I'm back in the dining room, but we've grown that business now to 55 people based predominantly in Kent. And that was really just the start of it. And since then, we've added some additional businesses. So giant campus, which is our training organisation, we've added, it's now four years ago. And again, I'm not sure because I'm just seems to kind of blur these days. But that's was essentially taking our training content, and then offering that out externally, so that we can then train our clients and train people to develop digital skills. And we also have actually a new bit of information, a new release that is very much hot off the press at the moment, which is a business that we are not launching called Spark, the spark agency. And that is focused around paid search, SEO and social but on a much smaller scale. So businesses with sort of tighter budgets, probably more on a local level. And that has literally launched in the last three weeks as well. So we're really excited about that, and the possibilities that that will bring.
Robert Craven 03:00
So what's the difference between spark and the giant?
Luke Quilter 03:04
Yeah, so we've kind of as a business, we've been developing smaller solutions, so smaller offerings to businesses that have budgets, pretty much between the sort of 500 to 1500 pound budgets. So it's kind of the smaller, smaller end of the spectrum. And we've been doing that successfully for a long time. But it's always kind of sat in Sleeping Giant media. And so we've never really kind of pushed it as a kind of a direct offering. Whereas Spark is now doing that. So we've just launching a new website and kind of all the joys that come with that new business launch. So that will be aimed at the smaller businesses. And again, you know, particularly at the moment, given everything that's going on, a lot of businesses are jumping online for the first time. And their next question is going to be how do I stand out? So the first question over the last couple of months has been, how do I get online? Their next question is going to be how do I stand out and that's where the spark agency comes in. So that's, that's aimed at the kind of, generally the smaller side of the market and then seeking John media is generally your sort of mid to large size company that's looking for, you know, great results, great performance, within paid search and social and sorry, an SEO as well. So it's kind of it's the same proposition or the same offerings, but just done on a different scale.
Robert Craven 04:21
So, the spark offerings are really interesting because the what would I say the business sense would be normally get bigger clients who with you for longer, will pay more with bigger margins, where you can become more strategic. So l the normal route will be going up the food chain, Luke is, you know, one proposal, you know, 50,000 pounds a month versus one proposal 500 pound a month, times 10-100?
Luke Quilter 05:05
Absolutely. Yeah, no, it's a good question. I think the reason this has kind of come about is that as we've got bigger as an agency, our efficiencies have increased dramatically. So I think what happens is you can start, if you're a small agency, and you're talking, you know, 2, 3, 4 people, you know, your cost overheads are, are not that normally, that significant in the sense that your your office space is smaller, you're working from home, and you don't do all the you don't know, you don't necessarily do all that kind of stuff that an agency have sort of 40 - 50 people does in terms of the cost that goes into the the employees. So I think what you find is that the smaller agency, you can service the smaller businesses, but they then lack in potentially, the ability to kind of constantly stay on the cutting edge, because you're constantly delivering, so it becomes difficult to stay cutting edge whilst also delivering. And that's always been a balancing act for a lot of agencies trying to met to manage the demands of new business generation, delivering for clients, and also staying kind of really, really current with everything that's going on. I think as we got bigger, you know, our internal knowledge sharing is really good. So we're actually able to share insights very quickly across the team. And that then allows us to then become really, really efficient in the service delivery, so that we've then actually been able to be more cost effective and alert delivering that smaller ends offering whereas I think when we were sort of 20 people, we just didn't, we couldn't do it. And as I said, we've been delivered, we have been delivering the service in the background for quite some time, but we've just not really broken it out to do its own thing. It just feels like the right time to be talking about launching it and, you know, some exciting opportunity with lots of businesses recently, innovating, pivoting, moving online, and and actually, you know, then, you know, they're going to be asking what do they do next. And ultimately, digital marketing is likely to be a large part of their, of their sort of plans in the coming 12 months. So it felt like the timing was right. You know, with that said, in terms of your question is, you know, sleeping giant media is moving up that food chain as well. So actually, we feel that we're moving up that chain through Sleeping Giant media. But we already have a dedicated team that can deliver the spark proposition as well.
Robert Craven 07:15
As the spark proposition, just to be clear, the smart proposition isn't just the same people different website, it's actually different people in the organisation, but taking advantage of the economies of scale, taking advantage of the systems and scripts. Exactly. Yeah, it's interesting, because I've got an American friend Alex, who has been on the acquisition trail, and his agents is about 190 - 200 people. And he reckons that they can go into almost any agency. And because of the process that they have for acquiring business, because of the process, they have a proposal writing process, they have timekeeping process, they have monitoring, and so on and so forth. They can go into virtually any business and take a business that's just doing Yeah, 5 - 6% EBIT, da, three months, turn it to 15 - 20% EBIT quite easily just by putting in good solid processes that they wouldn't have known about on the way up, that's the only understand. Now they're of a certain scale, and they've got the big systems and so on. Cool. That's great. Well, I wish you all the luck with that. Thank you. Yes, small agencies in Canada throwing their eyes at the ceiling. Bloody Luke will honestly we were just getting on Okay, now he has.
Luke Quilter 08:35
Plenty of room for everyone. There's loads of business out there.
Robert Craven 08:39
I think there is. I think it's like, it's like a great big barn with the lights turned off and everyone's wandering around. And occasionally you bump into other agencies, but not all the time. And in any case, if someone's if someone leans in towards you, Luke rather than leaning towards Jay, the reason they do that is because they like the cut of your jib or because they don't like the way he talks or because He specialises in professional service firms or experienced large businesses or because you're you know, so we're in my thing is agencies are all running at different rates to be the best be the first thing that's profitable to sell to not sell to keep to grow to not grow under 30 under 50 Yeah, and I think that although from the outside world, the agency world is bland and undifferentiated my daughter's blow everyone pulling ropes, climbing trees, customer service, customer service, what makes delivering a service, which is bespoke and yet reasonably priced. I mean, everyone bloody does award winning number one in delete your county name. And so from the punters point of view, it's really frustrating. Everyone's everyone's selling In the same stuff, but actually, we're not at the heart of it. We're all very rare anyhow, I'll stop.
Luke Quilter 10:07
No, I agree. You know,
Robert Craven 10:08
We'll come back. Well, maybe let's just, let's talk about that for a minute. So how do you differentiate? Either of those businesses you made?
Luke Quilter 10:19
We're multi award winning Kent's first Sleeping Giant media. Yeah. And it, you know, it's one of those things, isn't it? I mean, we're very proud to have won a lot, a lot of awards. So it is a factor of obviously, of our proposition. And, you know, we've won some pretty pretty awesome ones over the years, which is, which is great, which helps I think businesses, it helps it helps clients understand if they don't understand digital, and I think that's the kind of it and so the external validation required sometimes when, you know, when you are talking to potential clients that don't really get digital, and actually, almost how do they how do they differentiate? So, you know, we've won clients who search for award winning digital agencies in Kenya, and actually, you know, we've won clients because of that. So it is a factor. But yeah, what we've tried to do with sleeping giant media is we've sort of diversified in terms of the training aspect. So what we do, and we think we do better than anyone, is actually to awaken potential. So we empower everybody, not just our team, but we empower the people that we work with, because for us, the digital space is not about, you know, black boxes, it's not about pulling the wool over anyone's eyes. And I think unfortunately, there's still agencies out there that do that. And there has been a lot historically that have done this, where it's a case of, you know, that you get them on board, and they can't, they don't show you what they're doing, they don't show you their IP, they're kind of locked in. And then you want to leave, and it's very difficult to leave. And we have this, you know, all the time when we take over new clients, and they have their agency wants to own their analytics account. I mean, you know, that makes no sense to me at all. And at all, they own the paid search account. And it's like, it's, it's kind of frustrating. So for us, our, you know, way we try to do differentiate is focus on training. So we developed what we call the true partnership, where we actually will work alongside organisations with their digital skills, and also deliver so we will deliver some of the work but we'll also build in training processes and systems so that they can actually upskill their entire team. And what that means is that they get good at something that we were doing, and we pass it to them, we do the next thing, they get good. And next week, we do the next thing, and I think that is a proposition for agencies is how do you add value? You know, that's what the question should be for all agencies. How do you add value? Not how do you stop them from leaving, is how do you do the next best thing, and that's what we focus on. And that's how we achieve it through training and upskilling their internal teams and developing, you know, a true partnership, not just in words, a partnership, which is often bandied about left, right and centre, which means nothing. It's really focusing on developing their skill sets as well.
Robert Craven 12:58
I love that. I mean, I love I think you're right, I think way too many people are performance agencies. And what they do is they do performance. And I think one of the one of the things that's happened sort of, you know, first quarter of 21st, two quarters of 2020, you know, is is they haven't figured out that having a hammer and seeing the client as a nail, means all clients are nails because you're always applying the hammer. And that just doesn't it doesn't work anymore. Maybe maybe it never, maybe it never did work. But I think right now to say this is what we do. And this is what you need. And this is what you want. So this is what we're going to give you is, is naive, naive at a minimum. So how do you see? So we're recording this July 2020? Well, theoretically post COVID. But believe it. Were posted the first lockdown. What we'll just briefly what's been your experience over the last three or four months because it's been I know that the first week I kept speaking to people telling them, they didn't have a business anymore. And the best thing they could do for themselves and their family is to close the business gracefully. That seems to have stopped, although we're still seeing big, big names now falling over. What's your experience been of the what we've been through?
Luke Quilter 14:31
Yes, on a business level. So we were partially impacted by this. So we've had you know, very, I think very, very pleased with our, our attitude to risk our attitude to risk has always been tried to spread our client base wide. Go multisector, go multidisciplinary. And I think that that has benefited us because actually some of our clients have been really badly impacted. And, you know, they, you know, they sort for some of them, it's been survival, it's been a case of, you know, just kind of cut costs and try to sort of weather the storm to kind of ready to emerge from hibernation. And some of them, you know, some of them are starting to come out of hibernation as well, which is, which is great to kind of see. And in other businesses, we've seen, you know, a really positive initial increase, and some has seen a positive increase in what we were calling the new normal, so kind of after the initial panic stage, and we did a lot of work around the transitional change curve, and tried to map everything across using that. And as well as some other work we did around revenue trajectories, like different revenue lines that we saw across our client group. And so as a business, we've kind of seen that an impact, we've utilised the furloughing scheme, because again, it's what happens overseas, even if you only use a percentage, that's the profitable percentage. That's a bit that was the sort of the e bit that where there was actually money being made. So we've had to kind of readjust our outgoings in order to kind of balance the books, which we've been doing. And then it's gradually reducing that. So we had 21 on furlough, we've gradually reduced that down to now 11 people on furlough. So it's kind of on our way to getting everybody back into the office or back into work, which is really, really positive. And so yeah, we've I think it's been, it's been really challenging for sure. But I think, you know, speaking to other agencies, I think we've, we're not as badly affected as some and I think we have been able to adapt very, very quickly as well, I think our US management structures and systems have kept us very agile, we're not, we're not carrying much kind of fat as well. So I think that's allowed us to respond very, very quickly. And I think all being said, I think we're doing okay, you know, it's very difficult because, as you said, some of the big ones are starting to tumble now. I think this is unfortunately going to ramble on for quite some time, we've got some we've got some clients that are in very badly impacted sectors they've they've held on and they are holding on in terms of their investment in marketing. But how long can that continue? You know, how long is it going to be before you know, particularly the travel space, we've got a number of clients in the travel space, and it feels like that, you know, they're going to, at some point gonna have to re-look at what they're doing. So I think it's, you know, at the moment, you know, I think we're doing okay, and we're handling it as well as we can. But I don't you know, when this was released in a month's time, two months time, I suspect we'll still be seeing kind of impact of COVID in some form.
Robert Craven 17:40
I think there's gonna be a whole series of shockwaves as you know as the credit cards get maxed out, because it's always the worst time in a recession. I mean, we know we're nowhere near through this worst time the recession is actually after the recession for the bankruptcy. And insolvency is because people have held on they've held now's the time to get out there and start spending money on going to conferences and advertising and so on so forth. Credit cards maxed out, they've got nowhere to go. Boom. So there's a lag on bankruptcies. Yeah, I think we're gonna see that. Can you just go back one step? You mentioned transitional change curve.Yes. By that do you mean the grief? What do I call the degrees?
Luke Quilter 18:30
Yeah, that's the Elisabeth Kubler Ross grief curve. Yeah, yeah. So what we did, as any good marketing company should do is take a model and rebrand it. So we've, we've looked at it, and it's called the unofficial pandemic change curve as what we've been calling it. So when you were speaking to someone about my speaking kind of engagements, I've been talking to lots of groups around the UK of CEOs using the pandemic change curve, where you go through the sort of realisation or sort of discovery realisation, panic, that's the low that's about the 23rd of March, which is when everyone went into lockdown, then it's normalised. So that's kind of probably April or May, most of June, and then into recovery, and then into the new world. So that's the model we've been using and, and kind of helping businesses to understand the madness. That's I think the kind of the message that we've been trying to use as is that by understanding those stages of that curve, you've got a better chance of, of planning and structuring your business for the new world. So rather than trying to kind of knee jerk and react to what's going on right now, it's like what's your what's your business going to be in a year's time? You know, what's it going to be? When everything's kind of settled down and assuming the virus has gone, behaviours will still have changed? So the way that we behave as customers or clients will have changed? and so what does your business need to look like? and we use I use that in combination with three questions. So what behaviours of change? How will that impact my business? What are the opportunities? And if you can pose those three questions, you can actually create a sort of a blueprint for your entire business and something we've done as well. So we've been kind of reinventing.
Robert Craven 20:14
Some of that slowdown. So what behaviours have changed? Yeah, my business, how do I respond?
Luke Quilter 20:21
And what are my opportunities? Yeah. And if you pose those three questions, what you then start uncovering is all the things that you need to do as a business in just to start planning now ready for that. And then you can start looking at your recruitment strategy, because not looking at your office layout, you can start looking at your, your kind of policies and procedures, your sales, you know, you can look at everything using those three simple questions. And it's, you know, we've used that to plan, essentially what we're going to be doing as a business so that we can start working towards it now, rather than trying to kind of focus on recovery, focusing on going back, because there is no going back there, it won't exist.
Robert Craven 20:58
So I've got about 12 questions coming off. First one is what do you think the digital agency world, the, the marketing, via the internet at its broadest, but more narrowly performance? How do you see that industry rolling out over the next 3, 6, 9, 12 months? And the reason I say that it's because I think there's a piece around the market, just the pure marketplace of buying and selling supply and demand, size of agencies coming and going. And I also think there's a, there's a kind of a meta level about the size and scale of platforms, and the attitude to the platforms, and how else that's going on. So how do you see the landscape that we're working in changing over the next 3, 6, 9, 12 months?
Luke Quilter 21:56
Yeah, I mean, from a marketing perspective, I think it's got to be down to the need for personal selling, I think it's like the brands like who you are, I think it's going to be massively important. It needs to be front and centre of agencies in terms of talking to their clients, but also all I think all businesses, that's the message I would deliver to all businesses, and it has to be authentic, you know, I think not just, you know, not just locked down, but obviously, black lives matter as well. You know, we've seen some we've seen, you know, revolutions happening throughout the last six or last three months, you know, it's been, it's been significant. So I think authenticity is absolutely fundamental. If you're not, if you're not going to be if you're going to have a clear set of values that you absolutely own and live by, then I don't think you're going to be a credible, credible business. So I think you
Robert Craven 22:45
Kind of push back on that. I feel like I might be a speaker and one of the CO groups that you're in, because I'm talking though, there's always a smartass guy who's gone. And there's always me waving. Is really you. I look around me, okay, and tells you what sort of what's your office? I'm on my phone. I have my cup. I have my biuro, I have my fly killer. Yeah. I have my microphone. Yeah, no point. When I bought any of those things, did I say I wonder what their values are or what their attitude to BLM is, or, or where their profits go. I basically for virtually all of them went to Amazon, because I knew I could get it tomorrow at a decent price. And I clicked and I clicked by and bought it. And I suspect that many people spend much their time buying things in that way.
Luke Quilter 23:46
Also, well. I think there's also we're seeing a lot of search in terms of China in terms of the businesses that are benefiting from that there's much more digitally focused number one, but also the businesses that are behaving ethically as well as theirs. Because again, it's not it's not just when I'm talking about authentic authenticity, I'm talking about how that how you behave. So if you're saying for example, that you treat your staff really well but in reality, you don't I mean if you know JD Wetherspoons as an example. I mean he's he's not covered himself in glory in terms of how he's treated his team during sort of lockdown now, it will be interesting, and I'm generally you know, I I'll be interested to see how their performance shakes out obviously, they do have a slight advantage of having this very useful ordering app, which is very well suited to to the current situation. So you know, be interested see how that shakes out but you what I would say is that when we are going through buying decisions in the next three to six months, we are thinking about safety more than anything like what than we've ever thought about before so going to get a haircut was about just like what time is it open? Now? It's a case of what's the queuing system? How do you make sure that you're, you know, keeping yourself safe? Like, there's questions now, that, that we as consumers, and consumers generally are going to have to ask that they've never asked before. And so I think when we're talking about authenticity, it's about making sure that actually you're living and breathing what you believe in. So you know, I think it's, it's kind of ties the things together, where we have to just think about it, like the purchase, you mentioned there, you know, maybe slightly different because they're kind of more required purchases, perhaps and is less of decision making process going through that. But anything in the real world, any sort of personal interaction, I think is going to play a part in you know, we're gonna have to have a more authentic approach to marketing.
Robert Craven 25:41
I but my, my concern, I mean, like, not playing the devil's advocate now. My concern is that, yeah, Barclays, NatWest, IBM, Shell, BP, wherever you want to name, we've all got a centre of whoever the big consultants in there saying, oh, we need to look authentic, or we need to, we need to show that we're caring. And if you look at the advertising has come out over the last four or five months. Total rubbish. It's always kind of music or guitar music very, very quietly, girl looks out, looks depressed, and it ends up with we're in this together. And it's from a I don't know, a smoke alarm manufacturer or do you just think, guys, you know, it's for me, it's so obvious what you're doing. You're gaslighting the thing. Really, we're not in it together. You're just trying to make more sales. I mean, look at Sainsbury's or Waitrose. They've never had it so good. And what they're actually saying is, you still got to buy stuff. And we'd rather you turn left and went into Waitrose, and you turned right and went into Sainsbury's. And that's why we are trying to manipulate you to come here, as opposed to this being a really, you know. I really cared for thing, maybe I'm being cynical about.
Luke Quilter 27:07
No, no, I think I think but that's the point. I mean, you know, we talked about authenticity. And you quite rightly said that didn't seem authentic. And that's exactly my point. You know, I think it's, you know, that's why we have to, you know, we have to kind of own that, you know, if you don't say it, if you don't believe it is, is the kind of is the point, I think it's a feature that you will see more and more of going forward. I think some people will do it, because they genuinely believe it. And some people will do it, because they, you know, they know that they think it's the right thing to say to kind of to make more sales. And, you know, I think it's, you know, for agencies, particularly when we're talking about face to face sales. You know, I think it's I think it's really important, you know, I, I strongly believe in, in kind of environmental aspects, it's a big part of our business, a big part of our brands, you know, diversity inclusivity, massive part of what we stand for, as a business. So, you know, that's, that's what we that's what we are going to talk about, that's, that's our front and centre, because that is who we are, that defines who we are as people now. You know, I think that it's, I think it's believable, I think it's authentic, because it's what is what we stand for, as a business. But I'm not disagreeing with you, because I do think some businesses will kind of say that because this is the right thing to say not because it's the right thing to do.
Robert Craven 28:23
And I think going back to where we started, I think a lot of agencies in the same way that a lot of agencies write the proposals they write because that's the proposal they saw the previous place they work so they copied paste, put it on a key and took it to the next place. So they assumed that a sales presentation has to be me, we found it in 1999. So there, and why all their websites identical because there's a kind of a normal distribution of, well, everyone else is doing a website with people climbing trees, and pulling ropes. So we'll do the same thing. And we'll talk about delivering value for money. And we'll put some, some plants up in front of us and we'll and we'll there's a kind of a you know, a me to sort of approach as opposed to standing out for something else saying you should stand out for something just for the for the hell of it. But I am but I am saying that that from the from the buyers point of view is so, so beige, so blonde moms, because every bloody agency has a ping pong table and it has and it has a cool fridge with beers in it and snacks for everyone to eat and stand up places. And it's it's not cool because it because you're all the same. So it features being cool. What's cool ironically, if going into an agency never one's wearing a suit and a tie. That's kind of like what the hell's going on here? Yeah, or we give 15% of our profits to charity, or our offices are open on Monday and Wednesday night for homeless people to use our machinery or we train unemployed people on a Friday afternoon. I mean, you kind of feel like it's a catch up thing. But we have the power as people who run our own businesses to, to do whatever we want. Yeah, we can play whatever game we want. And, and that's, that's a real privilege. And just being me, too, feels like we're, we're shortchanging everyone. So I love the fact that you're out there trying speaking, I love the fact you, you're smoking your own dope, so to speak by, by running a training company. I love the idea that you're saying, Yeah, we need to figure out what the client wants next. You know, so interdependency, rather than creating dependency drives me mad when people come to me and say, you know, we can't look, we can't be released from the agency for nine months. And they haven't. They're in the IP to our, to our website. So, you know, we don't know what we mean.
Luke Quilter 31:25
It does. Yeah. And for that, for the good agencies out there, it's an uphill battle, trying to get over the line, because it's kind of your go to this mad conversation about the trust aspects without really any until they kind of work with you. They don't really know, because it's, the other agencies told them exactly the same thing and the sales pitch. So it's, yeah, it's a tricky one.
Robert Craven 31:47
So what do you so yeah, there's a there's a bell curve of agencies with a rump in the middle of doing their fantastic 5% EBIT, da with whether they got 5, 15, 20 ,50, 100, 200 people struggling really trying to make make a go of it, but for some reason, they always run out of cash, they always run out of money is really, really hard. They have that problem that 5, 10, 15 and 25, 40. There's a set Ryan, a curve is predictable, the growth curve, but that top bit of the bell curve, the high performance, what do you see them doing? Different? What makes the high performers? That I mean, we all know that kind of the 80/20 stats, top. What makes the top 10% of agencies be so different from the rest of them are really struggling? In your mind?
Luke Quilter 32:49
Yes, I mean, it's a tricky one, because I think I can only speak for what we do properly, in a sense, have spoken to a number of bit of agency owners to kind of get a vibe. And I think, I think the key to running an agency successfully is not isn't there's no one thing, I think the key to running a successful agency is doing lots and lots and lots and lots of little things successfully, continually. That is, I think the key to sort of successful space in the agency world, because it's a lot of moving parts. And I think that it's a case of, you know, we talked about it before, like you mentioned, your colleagues or friends sorry, that had an agency in the states that, you know, talks about being able to kind of improve someone's EBIT, da by coming in with the processes and systems, I think that, you know, for agents he's over a certain size is crucial. So, you know, we can onboard a new member of our team, and I can tell you to the, to the day when they will be profitable for me. So I can tell you statistically, everything I need to know about my agency I have we use the EOS The Entrepreneurial Operating System. I think I can see that in the background of yourshot. The traction book, yeah, the orange one. And so I think yes, only the colour is lovely. So it says a lot about a year. And I think it's that it's things like that it's those processes, that system, that structure that allows you to run an efficient agency, and there's, you know, they talk about scorecard metrics, so all the metrics you need to run to run. I think that is the key to add to an agency is having visibility of everything that's going on. And that's almost like the foundational piece if you have that in place, you've then got a chance of success that moves you to the next kind of layer. And the next layer will then be things like you know, the right people and the right positions, and then the culture that sits on top of that as well. So I think it's then how do you how do you maintain a decent culture which is a new challenge that in a given the circumstances we're all in at the moment we had, you know, we've had A great culture in the office with our classic, the iconic ping pong table, we do have a foosball table, a bar, a ball pit, and lots of other stuff as well. But yeah, and it was creating a culture, where we like to be where we all enjoy spending time and share ideas work together and, you know, just do some great things. Now, that's been changed into kind of this remote environment as well. So that's kind of the next kind of nut to crack in terms of ensuring that, you know, businesses can kind of sustain that. So I think, you know, that, that in itself, those sort of pieces, there will are the things that make the best agencies, but it's, you know, it will come down to, to, you know, how well you manage the expectations of clients, you know, and that is a it seems it seems small, but I've worked, you know, I've done some consultancy work for people where, you know, the clients are running mark, they're just literally they've there's no understanding, and actually, that hurts the client as much as it hurts the agency. So the agency is not profitable, the clients not getting the best work. And it's because simply because they didn't have the right onboarding process, they didn't ask the right questions. You didn't have the right team in place with the right training to handle the technical questions to then push back to say, Guys, I hear what you're asking me. But that's not what you want. This is what t you want.
Robert Craven 32:54
Can I push you on this a little bit? Because history is, the history books are written by the winners. And what the winners say is, we were awesome. We had an awesome strategy. It was all around processes, people and culture, and consistence and understanding how to onboard clients and so on, so forth. Now, my problem is that the graveyards are littered with people who said, I don't know what happened. We had this awesome agency, we have strategically sound, we follow Drs. We were obsessed with processes, people culture and onboarding people. And I look at steeping John and they continue to grow. And I didn't know what happened. And this is a serious point, because I think that the failures do exactly the same as what the success is to. It's just the business books are written by, hey, I did 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 and look at that, look at me, because the size, so to speak. And what we don't get is we did 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 But now I'm packing shelves in Sainsbury's. So there's, there's, I feel that there's.
Luke Quilter 37:39
There's what maybe one thing missing, then something else. Yeah, and I'll have a go. And I think it comes down to passion and enjoyment. And I know that that's probably really cliche. But I do wonder some of the agencies that I've spoken to that you know, haven't haven't succeeded, have they? Because it, you know, a lot of it comes down to the owners as well, like, so, you know, my as myself, and I've been working together for now 12 years, he's my best mate, but he was one of my best men. And you know, we worked really well together. And there's not a single thing I wouldn't trust him with. And I know that's vice versa. And I think we have an unbelievable relationship that helps us do that. And you didn't have to have a business partner like that. Absolutely. People do it alone. But I do think that running an agency can be very, very tiring, like very tiring as I suspect any business. To be honest with you. I'm not saying it's the grass is greener on any other businesses. But I think that, you know, you get beaten up by clients, you get beaten up by staff, you get beaten up by tax, you get beaten up by everything. And I think if you don't love it, and I mean, absolutely love it nine out of 10 days, then I think that is you can have every single system in place to try and catch it that you just won't want to do it. And I think that might be the success criteria. And I think there's also there's a point, you know, I'm the best I think I'm the best person to start a new business, I'm not the best person to run a business. That's I think, you know, evident, like, my, my excitement is in the new mine is like how do we how do we do this? How do we change this? How do we do this next best thing? And that's absolutely fantastic about how do I make it better? So how do I get us to 25% EBIT? Da that's his that's his kind of focus on efficiency. And I think, you know, that works really well because I don't get I don't start doing a job that I'm rubbish at. And he can focus on doing something he's great at and I can do the thing that I'm great at and I think maybe, maybe this is a cliche answer, but I think it's down to passion.
Robert Craven 39:34
Well, I don't think it's a cliche me who has no emotional intelligence at all and doesn't understand soft touchy feely stuff. But you know, if I talked earlier on about the five businesses I told to close down and the first week of COVID. They all five had exactly the same criteria, which was they had no pipeline so there's no business coming down towards them one. They had very, very shallow pockets. So it's gonna be really difficult for them to actually survive. But the really telling thing was, was, you know, can you survive this up to the summer? Can you survive to Christmas? Will your business be right? For what? Back to what you're saying? Will your business be appropriate to what people want at the end at Christmas time? And more importantly, are you willing to work until Christmas 2021? That's another whatever it is 18 months have you got the energy and the enthusiasm, the passion and excitement? Because if you haven't, go and pack shelves at Sainsbury's and every one of them said, you know, I'm beaten up, I'm done. I'm done with this. Even if I thought there was a chance, I'm just I've just had enough. Yeah. And maybe, you know, it's not nice and measurable by Tom Peters, or Jim Collins, or whatever it is. And maybe you know, cynics like me have been, you know, been so vicious about it. But maybe, maybe that's what it is. And I would also add a dose of luck. I mean, there's Yeah, so for me. I've got a 6 million pound contract with Barclays I've been trying to sell to them for the best part of a year, I woke up at a training centre at Warwick business school, went to bed at five o'clock and got up at seven o'clock. And then as I walked into breakfast, on a name badge was the person I've been trying to reach for a year, you must be you must be literally, alcohol, you can smell it. You must be Jay, I must talk to you, but not now, you know, or being invited to speak in Norwich, which is an eight hour drive and saying no, no, that's what I don't want. And the guy goes remember, sorry, Google, I can't hear you. And then finally says, Oh, the head honcho from Google is going to be there. Oh, actually, I think I can make you know, which ended up as a result of that relationship. Last year, I spoke in 18 non European countries. So the luck or the sliding, let's call it sliding doors. Maybe that's the thing.
Luke Quilter 42:12
Well, I think, you know, what you said there? I mean, partly the reason that, you know, yes, there's, there's some luck in there. But to a degree, we you create that by that positivity, you know, I think if you, you know, and this is what we said, we're talking a lot about what we call the RE startup mentality. So a lot of businesses are, you know, quite obviously, not in a good place. And it's very difficult to sort of see the wood from the trees or light at the end of the tunnel or whatever, before you want. But it's, um, we need to think of this as an opportunity to reinvent to restart rather than to try to get back and I think it's, it's that positive thinking and as you said, does take energy. Absolutely. But when you give it that energy, when you give it that passion, those opportunities arise, you know, and I think that, you know, you would have probably come across those events, particularly because, you know, you were still positive you in your charging, and you know, you're making those things, those good things happen, you know, sometimes it's just, it's just sheer blind luck, and that's great. But actually, I think having that positivity, you see those opportunities, when you're negative, you don't, and I think that then it creates this spiralling effect, where actually you're kind of you're, you're not feeling up to it, therefore, you don't get out the door, you don't go to the track, you don't get on the train to go to London to go to that networking event. And then it becomes a cycle of, Yeah, it didn't really work out for me.
Robert Craven 43:34
I mean, I remember, 1 million years ago, I had a fine mentor called Richard, I finished my MBA and was looking hard for work. And one day I came in and he said, You're different. And I said, What do you mean, I'm different? He says, You smell differently. You've got a big piece of work, haven't you? So how do you know he said, It's just everything about you is it's from that like, to the shoulders of relaxed, they've come down that has gone up, competence and we lose our confidence or our lack of I know people go on courses, we go on courses, especially our speakers and try and manipulate our presentation. Clever if you do this, then you do that and so on and so forth. But some people you just think they're not good. They're not good news and some you think are good. Well, we're getting very philosophical. So everyone's got their bounce back loans. All these agencies got their 50,000 pounds or let's see bills, up to two and a half million pounds and everyone keeps coming up to me and saying yeah, the agencies for sale. I was just wondering And what your view was around? I don't want to cloud your answer about around people suddenly being a bit cash rich and how they should do that. And whether you think buying and selling agencies is a good thing or...
Luke Quilter 45:18
Yeah, I mean, so I mean, speaking honestly, we haven't gone through the process. So I can't I can't speak in terms of any experience to say, it's really, really good or really not. I've spoken to a number of different agencies that are going through this have gone through this because it's something that we're interested in something that we're kind of looking at. Because I feel like we've got some a system now that I think we can plug people into, and we can massively move the needle in the right direction for them, because our efficiencies are significant. So I think we've got, I've been looking at it from that perspective, I'm really interested to see what happens, I think, it's gonna be an interesting one. So I was literally we were talking about this just before COVID, kind of here, we were looking at possible acquisitions to kind of speak to a couple of people. The interesting thing is that because of the government grants and bailouts and everything, businesses that were struggling, have not now not struggling temporarily. So this is kind of like artificial cash injection to the market. That means businesses that were on the edge are now still on the edge, but they're still kind of going. And I think that when that starts easing, you'll start seeing those businesses that were struggling, kind of continue to then revert back to struggling again, as well. So there will be suddenly this, which I think you sort of alluded to already, in terms of sort of businesses going kind of pot. And I think, you know, there will be obviously businesses looking to expand I think, just as in anything, any, you know, any purchase any any kind of process is just doing the due diligence properly to make sure that it's not, it's just not people kind of getting out the door, because quickly as they possibly can with a business that isn't properly structured. So I think, yeah, it's gonna be, there's gonna, I think there's gonna be a lot of businesses out there looking for acquisition looking to be acquired. And I think there's some of them, you know, are going to be acquired for the right reasons. And some of them are going to be things that you should absolutely say, stay clear off, because they kind of clearly not not set to kind of do it, I think, borrowing money, you know, I get it, to do it. And so obviously, but it's also you got to be careful, you got to pay that money back, as well. So it's also, you know, there's a significant risk in it for the acquirer as well. So it's making sure that again, you've kind of gone through that process to do it.
Robert Craven 47:39
I mean, I just think it's a massive distraction or tool.
Luke Quilter 47:42
I think it's dangerous. Yeah.
Robert Craven 47:44
Jonathan Jay, who's a serial business acquirer. He reckons it took until the seventh or his eighth that acquisitions, he kind of got it smoothed out. And he hadn't had his fingers burned. And yeah, and it's but you know, there's this kind of interesting model, which says, You're a technician in the business. You're a supervisor, manager, you're a board director, you're an investor. And as our businesses grow, you go from being in the front room, and clearly being in the business and then become a manager. And then 55 people on the board director, I did a little bit in the business, but I'm really moving things around and getting the team move around. And there's another level above that, which is seeing the business investor. And I think it's just a question of figuring out what hat you're wearing and how you make money. We all know that you make money from the deals, it's the deals, whether those joint ventures whether that's with a car or whatever, it's we know it's the deals that make the money not the transactional day by day grips. I think it's enforced on us. Cool.
Luke Quilter 48:55
Very distracting, I think, as you said, I think, you know, we're interested to understand it, I am personally reluctant because I don't want to pull myself out of the bit of our businesses too much because I fear that will be a big issue. So I think we're considering it now because we're a bit bigger because I've got a decent management team in place and I've done I did nine months of consultancy work where I was out of the business a lot to sort of almost a test the war to see how things would work and I think it's only now having done that the you know, that we could even consider the concept of trying to acquire because of the the amount of additional strain it would put on you know, the whoever's involved with that process and then the knock on implications to our revenue stream you know, the business.
Robert Craven 49:43
Yeah. So looking into your crystal balls going back to that currently we are quite bottomed out. How do you think, what do you think the agency world's gonna look like in 6,9,12 months? It's time.
Luke Quilter 50:00
Yeah, I think that there's going to be a more focused around data and insights trends, I think, you know, that is going to be a big, big part of the needs for marketing businesses, for businesses going forward. So they're gonna lean on, on data businesses, for sure. So I think that's, you know, one area that I think will have to be a bigger part, I think business consultancy, I think is going to be important as well. And in the sense that the need for businesses, even if they are specialists in digital, they need to understand the broader piece. So rather than just going oh, you need PPC, or you need this, you know, which I think, you know channel based marketing, like just firing a channel, it needs to be right, let's, you know, let's have a look at that curve, what's the, you know, what's, what behaviours have changed, and really understanding businesses properly before you deploy digital channels. So I think there's going to be need to be more focused around broader consultation aspects for the agency market. And I ended up and I think that, you know, people will also want to move stuff in house as well, there has been a focus on clients looking to kind of develop in house teams. So I think it's a case of then agencies having to look at that and going, Okay, how do I add value in that, that overall mix, and there's, there's absolutely room for agencies to in that kind of that future, for sure. I think agencies are going to become, I think, probably more important, because actually, the world is shifting so fast. And, you know, I've worked client side, I know what it's like slow moving compared to agencies. So I think they'll need the insight that agencies can bring, because they will have seen it in a different sector that's slightly ahead of theirs, or they've got insight and tools and, you know, training that they don't quite have access to. So I think there's a promising future for agencies, I just think it's going to be, have to be slightly more focused around integration, better integration with client businesses, it's gonna be focused around data and insight. And also general consultation, I think those are the kind of three things I think for the agency world we've got to look out for.
Robert Craven 52:09
And what about the labour market? Because we're gonna have we're gonna be flooded with people from the larger consultancies, and the larger marketing companies say, as they claim to become freelancers?
Luke Quilter 52:21
Well, yeah, I mean, it's, I think there's gonna be a raft of entrepreneurship, which is, you know, not a bad thing. I think it's great for the economy kind of gets people started. But then you go back to, you know, the statistics around business stuff, which are pretty disastrous, in terms of how we can survive the first year and how we can survive, you know, past that point. So, I think, you know, there'll be a temporary kind of real focus on kind of freelancers, some will love it, some will hate it, some will want to grow, some will then realise it's very difficult to run an agency. And so I think it will eventually shake itself back into a format that we're kind of more familiar with Prosit probably with more freelance workers and slightly more flex is either freelance workers are more flexibility around employment, I think people are going to be keen to work from home, or I think they're going to be expecting more flexibility around their everyday lives. And I think it's going to be more it's more achievable, because I think clients are now aware that you can still work. Okay. We've been reluctant not because we can do it, but because I can't, couldn't accept it. So I think it's, um, you know, I think the world has changed. And so I think, you know, we'll see that I think the things will shake out to a similar format, perhaps with a bit more flexibility around either, you know, people who are part time employed or freelance consultancy and things like that.
Robert Craven 53:44
Two more questions. What next for Luke?
Luke Quilter 53:50
So for me, I mean, I've been doing loads of talks remotely, and I've actually loved it because I do talk in the real world and as you know, you mentioned the tracking of the travel aspect for you travelling around in different countries and it seems glamorous from the outside of that as well if you love it or not, but I don't as much and so I think I'm looking forward to trying to carve out a digital speaking gig for myself so that I can avoid the travel that I was previously doing because I did a lot of it and it's I love it partly but I hate it as well. It's like a love hate thing. I'm like always really exciting I get to go to you know, Newcastle or something like that.
Robert Craven 54:38
I was just gonna stay the night before in someone , you can't, you have to stay and it's who I think is to stay in their house and have dinner with that parents. Host is that's what you do and then you get taken to a venue anywhere is PowerPoint the handouts and and ...
Luke Quilter 55:01
You get back on the trains again.
Robert Craven 55:03
Absolutely. And even what an even worse is the big stage stuff, you come off the stage in front of 3000 people with people queuing up to talk to you. It's fantastic. And half an hour later you're in the Hilton on your own thing. What was that all about? Everyone loved him. Every now restaurants shot, I didn't get any food because I was going to speak. So I've and I've got to get on a plane tomorrow. I shouldn't grant it because it's a very night.
Luke Quilter 55:28
Exactly. So there's pros and cons. And I think there's an opportunity there to do more remotely within the speaker space. Because I think as you know, they've gone, they seem to have been well received the content I've been putting out. And you know, I can do it from here from my house, and I can walk next door and I can have lunch with my family. And then I can do another talk after lunch. And so, you know, I think there's some, that's my objective is to try to build a bit of a sort of remote speaking aspect to what I do. I'm not, you know, I'm not adverse to the real world. I just, it just has to stack up.
Robert Craven 56:04
I think I've become and I'm certainly for me, it's exactly the same thing. Before we turn the record button on we were talking about the technology and so on and so forth. And it is, it is great, you know, so in the last few weeks, I've been speaking, you know, New Zealand, sort of India, South America somewhere I can't remember it was. So there's the opportunity to reach more people. But it's different because it's harder to engage and connect and reach out and they can't smell you. And so there's just a difference. So that's next to you. So final question is you as someone who's kind of done the digital agency thing a bit, a lot, and come out the other end? But not sure about that. But yeah, well, you know, we know the status of startups. So what are your top tips, your top nuggets? agency owners?
Luke Quilter 57:10
I think it's such an individual question. But I think you got to as you know, we talked about this before, like, what the sort ofthe success criteria, I think, love it, like really enjoy it. And I know that seems odd to sort of say love it, but what, you know, my personal journey I was I loved what I did, I had a child, I carried on trying to do what I was doing before, which was like working before working during work, working after work and working at weekends, you know, that was, you know, what I did in the startup days to get the business to where it needed to be. And I then tried to carry that on with a small child. And I basically burnt myself out. And I just like, you know, I don't get stressed because I you know, I'm generally pretty good at handling things. And I spent an entire year not being able to see properly I couldn't see across my garden, I was struggling like to remember stuff that I would just do, I would get randomly nervous before doing things. And basically, I just completely wiped myself out to the point where I just worked myself into the ground nearly like just struggling with stress, like really, really stressed. And so point where I didn't really love it. I just did it because I knew that I'd created this routine. This is who I was, this is what I did. And I you know, I spent a year just in not in a good place really, really not. Not loving work, but just but also no, never missing a day. Because I would just create this as this is who I was this invincible business owner. And I would just say to people, you know, you're not invincible. You know, that's the first thing it is tough. It really is tough. And as soon as I you know, spoke to someone and you know, had a life coach who just sat me down was like, What the hell are you doing? Stop being an idiot. And I was like, okay, and then you know, and then you realise you're like, oh my god, yeah, I have I've created this in this impossible situation where I can't win. You know, I set myself up for failure all the time. And then you just reinvent and you go, Oh, yeah, that's stupid, isn't it? And now I love it again. And I think you know, is I think the success that you will have as an agency owner as a business owner comes through making a shirt and making sure that you are in a mentally good place to be like you surround yourself with the right people, but you also reach out for help when you need it. And I think that you know, ignoring all the specifics around data systems, people process etc. If you are not in a good place and if you are not enjoying it, you will not succeed and I think it's coming down to taking care of yourself making sure you know you sharpen the saw Seven Habits of Highly Effective People sharpen the saw and focus on enjoying yourself. And if you don't enjoy it, get out because it's to life's too short to be doing something you don't want to do. But know that actually, sometimes it takes a toll. It takes you know, stepping away Looking at it and looking at yourself to then go, You know what I do actually bloody love this. This is what I do. This is why I really enjoy and coming back in with new energy, new vigour and going again, and I think that that, for me, was the biggest lesson I've learned over the last 12 years.
Robert Craven 1:00:14
What a perfect place to end the great interview. Thank you, Luke. Very, very much. Details will be after the video. We look forward to seeing you again. And all I can do is just say a very, very big thank you to Luke. Thanks for having me.