Monthly Expert - Ital Sadan of Duda on Marketing Digital Marketing Agencies
VIDEO: 44:18 mins
AUTHOR: Robert Craven and Ital Sadan
In this GYDA Talks, Robert talks to Ital Sadan. Itai is the CEO and Co-Founder of Duda, a professional website builder for agencies and SaaS Platforms. Under Itai's leadership, Duda rapidly expanded its professional website builder product suite with an emphasis on empowering web professionals with cutting-edge tools to help them create beautiful conversion-driving websites at scale. To date, Duda hosts more than a million active websites that have been built by over 17,000 customers globally. Itai's expertise in the online presence and web design space has been cited by USA Today, Forbes, Inc., HuffPost, Search Engine Land, and more.
Robert and Itai discuss:
Marketing Digital Marketing Agencies
Duda – the platform and tools
Who are the 'agency' clients?
Why agencies should differentiate
Why agencies should niche and how
Getting the infrastructure and processes in place
How to charge and why you should have a subscription system
Transcription:
Robert Craven 00:49
Hello, and welcome to the GYDA Talks and today I am absolutely delighted to have with me Ital Sadan who comes from Duda who are in many ways a well kept secret. So let's find out more about him. Let's find out more about Duda. Hello, Ital. It's absolutely great to have you on the show.
Ital Sadan 01:10
Thank you, Robert, for having me. Pleasure to be here and speak to you looking forward to having an interesting conversation.
Robert Craven 01:19
Yeah, I mean, let's start. Let's start off with who is Duda, who knows who Duda, who uses Duda to what Duda are about?
Ital Sadan 01:28
Yeah, let's make sure that, you know, get people familiar and ensure that we're not the best kept secret. But you know, the most powerful secret that a lot of your agency viewers can hopefully utilise and help them improve their business and service their customers. So what is Duda? We're a white label, web design platform for digital marketing agencies. We have over 17,000 agencies worldwide building websites with our platform. And today, we have over close to about a million paying active websites on the platform.
Robert Craven 02:12
And probably will do it this way around because everyone's going to mention the other names and the other technologies that they could be using.
Ital Sadan 02:23
I wasn't familiar with any other.
Robert Craven 02:26
Justice. Well, I hate to tell you this, but there are one or two names that I might be more familiar with. What makes you different from them?
Ital Sadan 02:36
So first of all, I think it's our very deep and profound understanding of web agencies. We've built this platform for digital marketing agencies, web designers, and freelancers. So unlike some of the others who are for most website builders that were built for SMBs, we are web website builders that were built for a digital marketing agency. And what that means is that we have a very holistic and broad view of the process that an agency goes through with their client. And that process of the web, creating web presence for SMBs includes multiple steps. Yes, the web design step is the bread and butter. And that's kind of where our forte is. But we've also built features and tools to help them in multiple other steps. For example, I'll give a few examples. We've created white label. So the platform is completely white label, as I mentioned, and we've created white label collateral, and assets that agencies can use and put their own brand and help them sell their services and market websites to their customers. Another step that we've heard that there's a pain point is collecting content from small businesses. We know that many times it takes weeks to get images from the business itself to get the logo, you know, opening hours business information. We have algorithms that scour the web and go to Facebook or to an old desktop website, and just find all these assets and put it automatically at the fingertips of the designer. In addition, we have tools that allow agencies to better communicate with their clients around feedback. So a small business can highlight changes that they want on the website. This creates tasks very much like Google Docs for the designer. And later this year, we're also going to introduce a payment component that allows agencies to invoice and collect payments from customers. So a very holistic view. And I'd say that the one thing that I hear from agencies and many, many of those who've come from other platforms, is that Duda has cut down the time that it takes to develop a website by about 50% compared to other platforms. So I think this is really where we shine.
Robert Craven 05:09
Right. Okay, so what I really want to get to, so I get the Duda stuff, and that's great. But what? Certainly our listeners and viewers will be intrigued to know about this. You've worked with 17,000 agencies. All right, and you have a million websites. So you must know what the really great agencies do, you must know what the really poor agencies do, you must be sitting there saying, Guys, just do this and do that. Why don't you do this? Or you must be sort of sitting there tambien? Why has your agency not done this? It's such an obvious thing to do. So, What is it that you see that the good agencies do? And what is it you see that the less successful do?
Ital Sadan 06:03
Yeah. So yeah, out of those 17,000, we have agencies in different sizes and different sizes. And right, I'm using agency, it's kind of at the broad umbrella name, it's we have everything from freelancers to web designers, to digital marketers, to, you know, bigger agencies, by the way, some of our agencies are extremely large, and, you know, with hundreds or even 1000s of employees. A couple of things that I would say, maybe three, one, I think, you know, successful agencies that have scaled have a certain differentiation to them. I've seen examples for differentiation could be being very vertical focused or industry focused. I've seen agents, the seas that are, you know, that specialise in real estate websites or agencies that specialise in the travel industry, or in healthcare. Now, the moment that you specialise, you automatically have this differentiation, because you've, when you approach a business client, you're able to tell that client what they need to have on their website in order to succeed, you share a very similar, you know, nomenclatures, you know what integrations they need, your templates are, you have reference customers in their space. So it's just, you know, that specialisation and really going deep into an industry or into maybe a couple of industries, gives you a leg up versus any other agency that is very generic and informed. I think that's one thing that I've seen. Second, agencies that have scaled, offer multiple products or services, they typically don't just offer websites, they could be offering SEO, and SEM and websites with Duda. And maybe reputation management. And they really provide a digital marketing strategy to a small business and not just a point solution. It's also well known that to upsell a customer with more services products is easier than getting another dollar from an existing customer is easier than getting a new dollar from a customer that you don't have. So you always need to think about, okay, how can I help this client? And how can you know, how can that also help me by offering additional services to that customer. So I think that's number two. And so we've talked about that. And number three, probably around once you start to feel the scale and kind of your agencies growing, it really requires you also to scale from an infrastructure and process perspective. Initially, maybe you can kind of manage your business in a Google spreadsheet and, you know, kind of sticky tape and chewing gum things together. But to really hit scale when you're starting to have 10s and maybe into the hundreds of customers or more, you really have to have a really strong operation to back you up. And that means, you know, CRM tools, marketing automation tools, you know, kind of the whole infrastructure to really support the scale of an agency business with multiple customers.
Robert Craven 09:49
Yeah, I think the differentiation thing is fascinating. We get that question asked us all the time about should we differentiate and of course, I often quote the you know, the client of ours who specialised in hotel wedding venues perform COVID, whose his work workflow in three days dried up by 95%, boom, just about every time the phone rang, it's like, we're stopping now. Even so, you're still able to survive, because you have an understanding of a particular sector. So you can still offer that sector something different. So they were provided websites, and they could move on as Okay, let us help you with your marketing and your email campaign, we need to let people know, we're still open, we need to provide alternative solutions, and so on and so forth. Though it wasn't as profitable, they were able to continue and I always find it interesting how people kick back against niching, against saying, We are experts, with lawyers, or accountants, or real estate, or hotels or restaurant or Takeaways or computer suppliers, because it feels to me like a no brainer, because you know, as the niche expert, you see more of their competition than they do. And you know more about the price, the cost of customer acquisition, you know more about the sweet spot, you know what the customer wants, whereas the independent accountant, say, spends most of their time just looking out of their office and through their computer, they don't know what other accountants are charging, they don't know, what accountants clients in need of a website. So it feels obvious to niche because you become an expert very, very quickly. Why do you think so many, eight inverted commas agencies are nervous to go down that niching route?
Ital Sadan 11:53
I think it's could be the what you mentioned, there is some risk, obviously, we've seen it in COVID, where specific industries were hit hard, well, either other industries, you know, might have benefited from it, I think you could still be niche and maybe slightly diversified to, you know, to tackle, you know, to de risk. So maybe not just have one vertical, but two verticals, or more that you focus on. Think some, you know, some businesses, it's just maybe they didn't start vertical, vertical lysing, maybe they didn't, they were just very broad. And they're just comfortable with that. And it's hard to make that decision, you know, let's focus on a niche. So it's kind of just float in a flowing with what they've done so far. I think it's never too late, you can always start broad, and, you know, add, you know, and then try to get deeper into a niche, see how it works for you, put specific content on your website, related to that vertical, make an attempt to do some maybe initial integrations with certain platforms in that space, or, you know, build some templates that are related to that space. And see how it goes, you know, you don't have to jump in go 100%. niche, you can try it out and see if that works for you or not.
Robert Craven 13:34
I mean, we know, agencies that I think it was a third attempt at niching. They kind of knew intellectually that niching is the way to go. And they also knew that it would take, you know, kind of 18 months to be a name absolutely just can't just start being an A. And they kind of dabbled, I suppose, until they fat and they ended up with care homes with transfer failed. But the first two or three attempts, you know, going figure out an industry I think they did. I think they did lawyers and they did accountants first. And they found that the space they went into was way too crowded, too many established players. And they and I also think that there wasn't a value fit between themselves and the clients, you know, so it's really important that you believe in the clients and the clients believe in you and you share values. So when they came to that third attempt in care homes, not only was the space in Europe not nearly so crowded, but more importantly, they felt they had a connection and they could identify with their clients and so boom, they hit it off. So, you know, suddenly they've got a podcast, they've got a blog, they're speaking at conferences, sponsoring conferences, and they're all things care Oh, no done that in less than 18 months. So, I think there's a really interesting thing. So I don't think you can say, let's go to Google and look for the searches and look for the responses. I mean, I don't think you can quite do that, because you'll end up chasing a niche. That may not be something you're comfortable to be in. But I certainly think there are places which are better than others. Interesting question.
Ital Sadan 15:31
Yeah. Robert, you mentioned there a couple of, you know, a couple of important things, I think, one, how to choose a niche, I think, first of all, I think you need to feel some, you know, passion towards that niche, otherwise, it's going to be really hard for you to be good. You know, I think it's, you need to go really deep into that niche, as you mentioned, participate in the podcast, go to their conferences, get to know the key players there. It's really hard to do if you don't have any natural interest in that industry, right, you need to be reading the relevant industry, you know, journals, and magazines, and blogs and all that. So you need to go really deep and be interested, you know, truly interested in that industry. And then I think what also strikes me from what you mentioned, which is really important, it's not just about your understanding of that niche, it's your ability to market to that niche, right to the moment that you're more industry focused or have that niche, you know, it's easier for you to target customers to know where to invest your marketing dollars in order to acquire customers, I think that's the problem of being broad. It's really hard to build a brand name and be known for something when you're kind of very broad versus.
Robert Craven 17:06
100%. About two years ago, three years ago, four years ago, I typed publish to a broad generic book called Check and strategy journal, which is all about how to grow your business, and how to do that personally and how to journal it. And the other was to grow digital agency books, the better quality value felt published by a proper big publisher with graphics artists, blah, blah, blah, checking strategy journals, was competing with every single person who's a consultant or a trainer or in personal development or business development. So it's everything from Tom Peters through to Stephen Covey onwards. And although it was, in many ways, the better book with a bigger backing and the suit, it never really got going. It sold to 3000 copies, maybe which is fine, but it's not. It's not a big number, whereas the Gregor digital agency book, which was self published, and it's 98 pages, and it's kind of I love the value of brands, shall we say, in the work put together? It's all 25 - 27,000 copies. And that's because, you know, in terms of supply and demand, how many people are writing books specifically for growing a digital agency? Answer Destiny handful. How many people are writing books for growing businesses generally, you know, 1000s come out every year, it's really difficult to get traction. So I'm, you know, I'm a great fan of niching. And, of course, the ability to actually know more about the space. So for me, it's always people always leaning in saying, so what are you seeing at the moment? What are people saying at the moment that need to be the kind of a person who's another question I'd like to ask about, which is about charging and pricing. You know, we always get this thing. We charge by the hour at which point I can absolutely bonkers with do not charge. We compete on price. Do not compete on price, you must do that, please. But there's certainly a thing, especially around web design, about the like of people. One, I guess one question to you is, How should people charge? Is it a fixed rate? Is it a menu? Is it for the product? Is it should it be on results? And secondly, how can people do more than just charge $5,000 Do the work, get $5,000 and go? They were a client To all this, but they seem to have gone elsewhere for the SEO and the PPC. So your take on that?
Ital Sadan 20:07
Yeah, definitely pricing and packaging is an important topic. And I've seen kind of everything under the sun, especially, you know, when you have the amount of agencies that we have using our platform, but I think the most common is a flat fee for the initial build of the website, kind of a more of an upfront, or maybe that is split 50/50, between when you start to build the site, and until the deliverable, and then an ongoing subscription, that covers both kind of the hosting, you know, that's maybe the, from there, that's the fee that you would pay due to kind of our margin, but you would add on top of that, some additional services. So it's not just positioned as services, maybe it is, you know, the hosting of the website, plus, you know, two or three revisions per month. And if you have some other services, you can tack those on as well. And I think typically, what we see is, you know, again, prices are all over, you know, I won't get into the one time fee, because it really depends on the size of the website and the amount of the work and people price that very differently. But the ongoing subscription, I think I've seen anywhere from between 25 to $100 a month, depending on how much services you really add in there. And I think I can't stress more the importance of adding that subscription component to your pricing and packaging, because not all customers are going to come back to you every month with requests for changes, in addition, and just as you know, that scale so beautifully over time as you layer on more and more subscription from existing customers and really build a recurring subscription engine into your business. So I really encourage agencies to think about that, and make sure that they're adding a subscription component to their pricing.
Robert Craven 22:22
An additional touchpoint because it means you can go back and say we've looked at the website, and we're aware of the changes in the industry, or are you aware that you're focusing on events, which are past or you're missing a trip, because you're not using video, or whatever it is?
Ital Sadan 22:41
Yeah, make sure that you're providing value, I think it's never good to just be collecting subscription and not adding value so that the customer is not reaching out asking for changes, make sure that you know, Robert, as you just mentioned, that you're proactive about it, and have these sync points with your clients along the year where you're saying, let's add video, let's add something with social media, let's add some other things into your website. And you know, maybe it's also once every two years a redesign, just so we make sure we stay fresh and updated with our content. So all these things that you can add into your product service.
Robert Craven 23:28
And how do curious to know how, the more successful charged for the bill, because I always get this pushback on my thinking about prices. You don't charge for features you charge for benefits and for results. So you say This website's going to generate a million dollars of sales for you each year. So therefore $25,000 Is it seems to be a very reasonable price to do. And other people say, Oh, no, no, no, we've got a chart, we gotta say it's going to be 200 hours, it's gonna be 200 hours or $50. And therefore the price is going to be 10,000. And then we've got the people who say I've had a stand up argument in front of an audience where this guy was saying, There's no way that I can know how much it's going to be to do the web bill because there are so many variables. So I charged by the hour and I said if you charge by the hour, that's just encouraging you to be slow, you're meant to be the expert. So you must know that this is a website for accountants and typically a website for accountants takes x hours plus or minus 10%. So why don't you have some skin in the game and say that you can do the whole thing for however many $1,000 If you get it done quickly, well done and you can get it done slowly. Well, that's the and he went off on one about don't die. To stand his business and how important it is for him, I'm just saying, from the customer's point of view as an expert, you should be able to say it's going to be between, at least say it's going to be between 10 and $15,000. Should be 10. unless we've got some really sexy stuff you want us to do, in which case, we'll let you know in advance.
Ital Sadan 25:24
Absolutely agree with you, Robert, I think as an expert in space, you're supposed to be able to provide a ballpark number pretty early in the conversation. And then as you understand kind of the spec and spec it out, you know, the amount of pages and if there's any special fancy things or integrations, you can kind of mark it up. But I think you have to, you absolutely have to risk it for the client, they're not going to just accept an answer, you know, this is going to be an hourly rate. And, you know, I don't know how much it's going to end up, you need to give a range, at least a range at minimum and say, hey, if at any point, I feel like this is going to go beyond that, we're going to have a conversation. But based on what I've heard so far, it should land somewhere between x and y.
Robert Craven 26:15
And the problem, of course, is that. So the problem, of course, is that the agency is the one that spends all the time building sites doing PPC doing SEO, therefore, I have an expectation as a customer, that you will know this stuff. And as a customer, I don't, I only have one website that's really important to me. And I'm very often your web designer, or the web design process, I'll put it that way, is a whole load of noise. You know, which, as a customer, I don't understand because it's the customers like, here's my brand, does the palette, these are the products we sell, these are the customers we want to sell. We think we want to have an about us page, we think we want to have, here's our shopping list. And clearly we don't recognise the complexity of having just said we want that. But it's the job of the web design agency to make that a great experience. And I think very few people get a really great experience. I always tell the story. I love my accountant, I adore my accountant. Why do I love my accountant? Well, I think I love my accountant, he makes me feel great. I wouldn't know if another accountant to save me more tax or not because I only have one accountant at a time, you know, and as we know, marketing isn't the Battle of the product, it's a battle for the mind of the customer. So how can agencies win over the mind of the customer? I think that's the question.
Ital Sadan 28:04
Yeah. And funny to say I was just doing my taxes last night. You know, this is probably my third accountant in the last five years. And I definitely feel the difference between accountants. I can say, you know, when you're dealing with an expert, a professional in their field, you know, they give you that sense of confidence that they know their area, right? Because as you mentioned, for me, as going back to as a business, I'm only building one site, but the agency is that expert that has built many, many sites. So I think instilling that sense of confidence and the fact that you know, what works and what doesn't work, and that you understand my business, I think goes a long way in terms of you being able to acquire clients and retain clients.
Robert Craven 29:05
So I got this thing you know, it's, again, a customer speaking with my customer. And it's Do you understand me? In other words, what I'm trying to do, do you understand my business? In other words, how this business operates and why we talk about fees and not expenses or why we talk about with or without tax or whatever it is. Do you understand business? Do you understand the nuts and bolts of business? Do you understand my marketing plan and my so-called cunning plan to get to marketing? And I guess the question is, how can the agency demonstrate that they get all that stuff? Because that's what will make me buy from you.
Ital Sadan 29:58
I think It comes with experience, over time dealing with doing enough, sufficiently enough projects should get you more experience and more confidence and really have that understanding of businesses in general and what businesses need out of a website. We talked in the beginning about, you know, going niche vertical lysing, right, that gets you even deeper into that understanding of that specific segment, that specific business. So I think that these are, you know, multiple things that can be done to, you know, to be really knowledgeable about business in general and about a certain type of client or customer.
Robert Craven 30:49
Fascinating. And, as I mean, the other thing for me, which I saw in an infographic, which was 40 to 42 trends, that an agency only needs to be aware of. So AI, optimization and SEO and it's like robots and machine learning. Is really, really scary being an agency owner, right now, there's so much going on from the huge number of platforms and sort of what I call the sub platforms out there to help the agency owner all the way through to five years ago, PPC was really easy because Google was the only gig down and now there's not only as a different PPC options, but there's video and Tik Tok and Instagram. And, you know, the customer is looking to the agency owner to I believe is looking to the agency owner to help navigate that, yeah, Instagrams not appropriate view, nor Tik Tok being would be fantastic. Blah, blah. So I'd be fascinated to know, your views on how you imagine a kind of a fit agency would look like in 12 months or two years time you COVID Settle down and back to do you see that agencies should be full service to see that they should be individual service? And how do you see that fit our agency looking?
Ital Sadan 32:36
Yeah, you know, I think your question reminds me of something that I get asked quite often. And that is, do you think agencies will be needed in the future? With all these tools, these AI these, you know, popping up? Would small businesses be able to do it themselves? And my answer is always Absolutely. 100%. And the reason is that, yes, tools are becoming easier, and there is AI. But you know, these marketing maps that show you all the products, all the software for every category where you could just like zoom, you could zoom in like double click 100 times, because there's so much software. So yeah, just think of the owner of the pizzeria, the dentist, the lawyer, the accountant, they have no chance in the world to navigate this world of software. And actually what, that's our job, that's the job of the agencies. And it's not about one tool or another. It's about building a digital strategy for that small business to make them successful. That's the end goal. And it is in order to part of that digital strategy is weaving together the right products and the right services. That can be used. And that's the role of the agency right to build that digital strategy. The small business has, they're not wearing a marketing hat, they have no chance in the world to do it themselves. They're looking at us as agency owners to come with a solution for them. I think it's great that the tools are becoming easier because that means that we can more easily do our jobs, we can be more productive, more efficient in building websites or doing SEM or create CRM or nurture tracks. For our customers, we can potentially charge more economical, more feasible prices because we can do the work faster we can get, you know, we can improve our own margins. So I don't think the agencies you know are going anywhere. I think the agencies are here to stay and are here to simplify and the complexity of the digital marketing world for small businesses.
Robert Craven 35:04
Yeah, so you're reading between the lines, you're a fan of a kind of a one stop shop solution for a niche. So the youth, so you become building contractors, we specialise in building contractors but once as a building contractor, we're able to do not just the web build, but we're able to help you with the maybe with the brand, and maybe we're able to help you with email campaigns, and maybe we can do some PPC. And if you can afford it, SEO will be really helpful for you is that what you're advocating is a kind of a growing sort of network.
Ital Sadan 35:43
It's one sales marketing funnel for our customers, it's one journey, right? From, if you think about these small businesses, from efforts into acquiring their own clients, to converting, you know, acquiring demand generation through converting the leads, all the way to, you know, once they become customers, nurturing them over time and retaining these customers. So I don't, I think, having the holistic view and being able to, to provide a holistic solution that sees the customer through the full journey, from acquisition to conversion to Retention and Expansion, it's easier when all services and tools are provided from, I think, from a single agency, not always will you be able to get kind of the full gamut. And maybe some things the customers would want to do either themselves or use some other specialised agency. But I think the ability to offer a set of services that span that full journey of their clients, is going to be both helpful to your customers, and, you know, provide a consistent experience. And also good for, you know, the bottom line of agencies.
Robert Craven 37:14
But that's tough, I didn't entrepreneur, you know, the guy or the gal that sets off on their own, sort of, on the dining room table, suddenly, they've got 5 people, 10 people. And really, what they want to do is code. Really what they want to do is build sites. And now we mean, both you and I are now kind of expecting them to be able to front a business and be able to have an entirely new set of skills about helping their clients. And I think that's what you should be doing, should be helping a client navigate the way forward and saying, this won't work for you. But I believe this will give you a really good payback. But it must, it's very hard for the reluctant entrepreneur who really just wants to get back behind the keyboard, and not be customer facing.
Ital Sadan 38:11
Yeah, I think first you should do what you're passionate about. And because you're always going to be good at what you really enjoy doing. So don't do something because I said, Just do whatever you enjoy and like doing and you have the best chance of being good at it. I think you could partner with other agencies. We have what we call fulfilment partners, so exactly, agencies that like to do the website building, but don't like to do the marketing and sales and they offer their services to other agencies. So if you're an agency on the other side that likes to do the marketing and sales, but you don't like to do the website Bill, you know, contact me. I can put you in touch with those who can do the back office build or vice versa. I think it's also important, you know, you can kind of boil the ocean in one days, and not even in a few months and kind of offer that wide span of all services. You have to start from your core what you're really good at, I kind of think about as you know, peeling the onion, start with the core, maybe you're good with the website build, and then you tack on SEO, because every time you provide websites, you have to at least do the basic SEO. So that kind of makes sense. And you can over time as you get expertise around SEO, you can offer you know, maybe a Premium SEO package that would do more, you know, backlinks and you know, social media or other stuff. You know, there's things that are a little bit further out that I wouldn't recommend maybe doing on day one, you know like acquisition sem rush You know, these are things that over time, you can decide where you want to kind of, again, grow from your core from what you're really strong and into additional services.
Robert Craven 40:13
We're pretty much out of time, I guess, as we wrap up two questions. Question number one is what's next for you and the business? Be really curious to know. And the second question is, what are the kind of the golden nuggets, the pearls of wisdom? Things you hear yourself saying quite a lot of agency owners are really interested to hear that. So number one, what's on the to do list? What's next in terms of world domination?
Ital Sadan 40:40
Oh, there's a tonne, we're investing a lot in the product. You know, if folks want to give it a try, I'd love to hear their feedback. But we've just launched kind of a new UI technology we call do the Flex, which allows building pixel perfect websites without needing to code. So you know, check that out. It's really cool that you're able to do today with Duda as a drag and drop website builder and the amazing output things that in the past, Robert, like you would need many developer hours to do it. And now you can do it without having any development skills at all. We're working on cool things around memberships. As I mentioned, we're getting into payments, probably going to start piloting that out. This quarter. Ecommerce we just made. You know, ecommerce was huge. You know, we saw last year we saw 25-26% year over year growth in the amount of E commerce sites being built on our platform. It was insane. We just on the heels of that we made an acquisition. We announced it about three or four months ago for a company called snip cart. We're working really hard in integrating snip cart into our stack. So that's going to be exciting and available sometime in hopefully, early 2022. Yeah, I think there's so many other cool things that are happening. But yeah, exciting to see the, you know, the platform continue and continue and grow.
Robert Craven 42:37
And finally, a couple of one liners or pearls of wisdom or things that you think that agency owners should definitely be doing.
Ital Sadan 42:46
I think, yes, let's just summarise some of the recommendations that we talked about. We talked about niche, vertical lysing, we talked about the importance of technology, when you're scaling, to help automate your processes and allow your team to scale. We talked about subscriptions. That's an important component to help your agency scale. Robert, anything else? I think those kinds of things that we talked about.
Robert Craven 43:22
That'd be fantastic. Listen, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you. It's great to get your insight because you're kind of looking down on the agencies rather than being inside the agencies. And so you get a sense of the shape of things and I'm just delighted that you and I kind of agree on both things around pricing and niche and so on and so forth. So that's really absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much for your time, your links and so on will be shown afterwards. And all I can do is say thank you for being a really wonderful guest. I'm pretty much indeed.
Ital Sadan 43:59
Thank you, Robert. I really enjoyed the conversation. It was fun talking to you.