Masterclass - Rethinking the Customer Journey with John Jantsch

VIDEO:

AUTHOR: John Jantsch

In this GYDA Masterclass, John Jantsch of Duck Tape Marketing, gives his insight into the Customer Journey.

Marketing today is less about demand creation and more about organising behaviour - marketers must understand how to guide customers through a full marketing journey.

John will take you through the framework that has been created by Duct Tape Marketing and has been employed in thousands of businesses and consultants to make their own customer journeys a success.

Transcription:

Robert Craven  00:08 

Today we're running a masterclass. So what does that mean? It means we are going to spend somewhere between 25 and 30 minutes with John sharing his thoughts and feelings about the subject of rethinking the customer journey, rethinking the customer journey. And then after that, we'll go to a Q&A, and I've got lots of questions already. If you've got questions, and at the end, put your hand up, or alternatively, pop them into the chat. Otherwise, it's an absolute pleasure to hand over to John and say, welcome. It seems to be largely British audience, but we're small, and we're dead keen to hear from you. Hello, John Jantsch. 

John Jantsch  00:45 

Well, welcome. It's, I'll say good morning, because it's bright early in the US where I am at the moment. So I know it's afternoon or getting on afternoon for most of you. I'm going to go ahead and use some slides today and trying to find the right desktop. There we go. Should be showing now. So as Robert mentioned, rethinking the customer journey, this is I'll show this slide at the end as well. But if you want to reach out connect, to me, this is a presentation is brought to you kind of as a part of this recent book, The Ultimate marketing engine. So let's start by going back in time, march 15, to 2020. When I mentioned that date, most people kind of think: Oh, yeah, I kind of know what I was doing that day. We were most of us were scrambling, because it kind of felt like the world was ending, it was a Sunday. And one of my clients actually sent me a an email, or a text actually, of an email that he was getting ready to send to, in the morning to his 50 employees and dozens of clients. Basically saying, Don't come in on Monday, we're stopping work. It was a remodelling contractor. You know, nobody's gonna show up on the job site on Monday, because we think this is the right thing to do. And, you know, I was immediately struck by the the responses that came in, basically saying things like, Hey, you're doing the right thing. You know, we're with you, you know, we're not going anywhere. In fact, one gentleman offered to pay in advance for work that hadn't even been started. And it really shone such a bright light on something that, frankly, is always been true, as long as I've been in business anyway. But we've somehow gotten away from it. And that is that, you know, in really good times, a lot of times, businesses just thrive and survive by being in the right place at the right time. But in tough times, I think growth comes from being important in the lives of our customers. And yet, you know, this is still the model that we're throwing at people, the old marketing funnel, let's figure out how to get people to do what we want them to do the tactic obsession, that I see so prevalent today in digital marketing. And I get it. I mean, so many things have changed and are changing rapidly. I'll just throw statistics, marketers love statistics, you know, 61% of mobile searchers are more likely to connect contact a local business, if they have a mobile friendly site. I mean, can't just have a website, it's got to really look great on those small, tiny screens. 87% of potential customers won't consider a business with will with low ratings, we now have to be participating out there in places we no longer control where our brand is being talked about, we have to play in that game. 64% of consumers say watching a video on Facebook has influenced a purchase decision. So we all know we have to be on social media. But now increasingly, we have to bend our content to the platforms in the format that they want to see our content in. And lastly, 92% of consumers will visit a brand's website for the first time for reasons other than making a purchase. It's a really complex job, that our websites, often the hub of our marketing, you know have to accomplish. So I get the tactic obsession. 

John Jantsch  03:59 

But I want to share two more statistics that I think hopefully will start to shine a light on what my primary thesis is today. 86% of buyers will pay more for a better customer experience. This is a recent Price Waterhouse Cooper survey in the US and frankly, I mean, I know I will. I mean 86% is practically all of us. So maybe there's actually some money in focusing and paying more attention in our marketing oh, what happens after somebody becomes a customer. And lastly, 83% of business owners claim that the main source of new business is referrals. I wrote a book back in 2009 called the Referral Engine preparation for that book. I did lots of surveys and this number is just stayed true. Year after year. A recent Texas Tech University survey found that they survey 2000 consumers found that 86% of them said: Yes, we have a business we live we have a business we evangelise we have a business we would refer, and then the follow up question, only 29% of them actually did. So maybe there's some money in closing that gap, that 50% plus percent gap, and those who want to refer us, but that aren't doing it. So the thing that that, you know, while while it's so common, that we're talking about all the changes in marketing today, and the acceleration of changes today, here's the point that I think many people miss, I think the thing that's changed the most about marketing is how people can choose to become customers. And that many of the ways in which we try to influence and generate leads and generate customers, maybe the ways in which people make decisions about becoming customers are actually out of our hands. Quite often, a decision to buy from us or engage us or not buy from us or not engaged us has been made before we even know that somebody is out there looking. And that sort of linear customer journey today looks more like this. And that really marketing today is less about demand creation, and more about organising behaviour, less about us getting them to do what we want them to do, and more about us guiding them on the journey that they want to take. 

John Jantsch  06:23 

I want to introduce a framework that I've been using now for a number of years, and it just gets more relevant with each passing year, something that I call the marketing hourglass. Now if you think about the hourglass metaphor, it certainly borrows from the funnel shape, I mean, the top of it is very funnel shape. And there's nothing really inherently wrong with us getting some percentage of the market to know that we're out there that we exist, and then even a smaller percent to realise that they're an ideal customer. But where I have issue with the traditional funnel language is that for many marketers, that's where they believe the journey ends. And what I want to suggest is that we then flip that funnel over to form the hourglass shape, because I think that the opportunity after somebody becomes a customer is really the opportunity to grow and scale a business. So my marketing hourglass has seven stages. Know like trust, try, buy, repeat, and refer. And my contention is that those are behaviours that we all want to go through as buyers, you can use your own buying really to, to validate that, I mean, if you have a challenge or problem, you want to know who's out there who could solve my problem. And once somebody refers you to somebody, or you do a search and you find them, I mean, we immediately turn to that. Okay, let's, what's my snap decision? Do? I like what I see? Do I not like what I see? I mean, we're all making that we may not call it like, but we're all making those decisions? Does a website load quickly? Do I find information do they seem to be talking about, you know, businesses or people like me. And then of course, we're not going to invest any energy in even making a phone call or filling out a form, unless we believe that this is a company that can deliver on his promise that other people trust this company. And I don't know about you, but I love it when I have the opportunity to try what it might be like to work with a company or an organisation before I actually ever have, you know, just to get out my wallet or get out my credit card. And the thing about a trial, you know, we're all familiar with the 30 day software trial. I mean, we've all done 1000s of those, right. But a trial has any way in which somebody is reaching out a phone call is to try filling out a form is is a try? I mean, so the point of all this is what are we doing as marketers to intentionally make sure that each of these stages is a great experience. And then of course, I like to buy all of us like to buy I think but we've also all been let down. I mean, buyer's remorse is a real thing. So you know, what are we doing to to make sure that that transaction, that onboarding, that that communication process is a great experience as well. And then, you know, as consumers, if I find a company or business that solves the need, if I ever have that need, again, I don't go out shopping every time that I want to do it again, I just like check that box off. That's one less thing I have to worry about. I like to go back and repeat business with people to give me a great experience. And then I think lastly, as human beings, we're wired to talk about companies that exceed our expectations. So that surprised us. We're wired to make referrals because referrals are something that this can get, we can get as goofy as you want to get about this, but it's almost a form of survival. I mean, we know at some point that that you know, if we can make a referral to somebody, they're going to we're going to need referrals at some point in time. So I think that in many cases, especially business cylinders, they constantly have that idea of referrals on their mind. So let's break each of these stages down a little bit. Because, you know, when I workshop this with businesses, I mean, we literally just go through and say: Okay, you know, how does somebody come to know about a business like yours? You know, what would make them like, you know, what are the elements that we need to build into trust? Now, I will say, after years of doing this, pretty much everybody can nail this category. You know, it's like, well, we got to run ads. And, you know, we need to show up when somebody searches and you know, we need to use content and social media networking, you know, these are all ways that people come to know about a business. But unfortunately, what most people then do is immediately go to, how do we get them to buy. And I think that in skipping those steps, these steps, which are a little harder for people to define, that's how we attract customers that are ideal. That's how we attract price shoppers, who don't really understand enough about why they should expect to pay a premium to work with us. So what goes in like, well, immediately when I visit a website, first thing I want to know is, are they talking about my problem? You know, do the brand elements make sense? Is there a story that I connect with? Does their content seem relevant? Does the site load quickly? Does it look like it was built in the 80s? I mean, a lot of people, especially digital marketers, we look at a lot of websites. I mean, that's a disqualifier, right off the bat, if it look, you know, if it's not HTTPS protocol, you know, that's maybe a disqualifier for me. So the a lot of things go into this snap decision, this first impression bucket that we don't often think about, you know, as as marketers as being a part of guiding somebody down this journey. And then of course, trust starts to be 

John Jantsch  11:44 

are their visual cues that other people trust this person? Is there social proof? Do they have lots of followers? Are there reviews, testimonials, case studies, you know, these are all elements that we, again, I don't think we're necessarily consciously saying: Is this a business I can trust, but there are definitely things that in our mind, subconsciously, we are analysing that that kind of lead up to: Yeah, okay, they go on the shortlist, or I want to call them. Now, these are the stages that really kind of create that long term relationship. The next two stages are really kind of what I call the bridge to long term success. I do a lot of talks on referrals. And you know, I tell people, quite often, the ultimate referral hack is to be referral. And this happens here, not when you then decide to go back and ask a customer to, you know, if they know anybody else who needs what you do. So you know, what goes in try. This is when somebody has moved from, you know, the, the know, like, and trust stages, quite often, somebody's doing that in a vacuum. I mean, they're doing that themselves, they're doing that research, they're making that analysis, but now, this is quite often when we are going to realise that this is a prospect. And so now the change the changes from us to actively creating or understanding what would create a great experience. So a tries are pretty much any way somebody would reach out to us quote, requests, evaluations form fills, even downloading content, certainly low cost, you know, options on trials. But, you know, I tell I work with a lot of traditional brick and mortar businesses, and it's, it's, it's appalling, how often, you know, the way the phone is answered, by whoever's job it is to do that is creating a terrible experience. And for a lot of people, that's your first and only try. Now in by it, this is quite often when when, you know I go to work with somebody, if I want to get them a quick win, this is first place I will focus because the you know, the everybody thinks marketing is is basically selling, and we get to this point, it's like, okay, they said they want to buy. So what's the transaction process, the onboarding, the orientation, the communication, frankly, you know, content, one of the greatest uses for content is actually after somebody becomes a customer, we so often just focus on content being the thing that we do to get a customer well content for the by the repeat and the refer stages are really what how you're going to ignite those stages. Alright, so I love these last two stages, and we all know this, but it is so much easier to sell more to your existing clients to retain existing clients than it is to go out there and find new people to trust you. So what are we doing to intentionally create retention? What are we doing to continually educate special offers? Everybody hates that new customers only what what's the special offer for your existing customers to keep them? What do you How are you thinking about selling more to your existing customers? How are you even thinking about discovering what else they might need? And then finally, referrals? I mean, this is this is the final stage but it's also It's ultimately the beginning goal. This is where it all really to me begins and ends. So what are we doing to make sure that we are intentionally staying top of mind with clients? What are we doing to to create a club environment for those champion clients that already refer you. And then finally, these last three are just, you know, a lot of times people think about referrals, they only focus on their existing customers. And I get that, I mean, they know how great you are, right. But the real opportunity to grow your business by way of referrals, is through strategic partnerships, non competing businesses that already also have your, your, your ideal customer as their ideal customer, you create the right relationships and the right focus on creating strategic strategic relationships. And, you know, you might find a partner that could actually generate 500, you know, 1000 referrals or introductions for you. 

John Jantsch  15:57 

So, know, like, trust, try, buy, repeat and refer, one of the things that, that I often find, or am finding right now, for the next year probably is going to exist is, is while there was so many negatives, obviously, that came out of the pandemic. One of the real positives, I suppose, is that we were forced to change, I mean, change was forced upon us, innovation was forced upon us, nobody knows how to do anything anymore. And so what that's done is it's opened the opportunity, I think, for us to completely rethink our customer journey, completely rethink the experience that we want to provide for our customers. So I think they're the move going forward the next year, at least if you've got some innovation that you've been sitting on, or some new approach that you want to try, now is the time to do it. I want to shift gears for and, and Robert stopped me from going too long here. But I want to shift gears on one more topic. So and I must admit I Stranger Things. A show in the UK? Yes. Yeah, perfect. Okay, so there's some at least recognition of the show. So you know, I'm a big fan. And when I do this, you know, audiences, there's always a lot of hoots and hollers, you know, in the in the audience, you know, of recognition. But anybody know what Steve was wearing there on the left that jacket, there's not as much recognition of this, you've got to be over 40, probably to recognise it. But that is a Members only jacket. This was a huge, trendy brand in the late 80s. At least in the US, I had one. You know, all my friends had one, you know, and then one day we looked up, and it was a Member only jacket, like all fat fads and trends faded. But I bring it up, because it really goes hand in hand with this concept, which is is really the chief innovation, I suppose, in the book, The Ultimate marketing engine. What if we came to view our customers, more like members? Now, I don't mean a membership programme, subscription programme or, you know, some some sort of Costco, you know, type of programme, more of a point of view, because if somebody views themselves as a member, I think it changes greatly. I mean, as a customer, you know, we may go out and research a business, but as a member, we're going to engage, we're going to become a part of that business. You know, as a customer, we'll make a purchase. But as a member, I think, what we view what we're doing in the right relationship, or is we're investing in ourselves to join that organisation? As a customer? You know, we're certainly going to refer a company that has given us a great experience, but as a member, we're gonna say, no, no, no, I mean, it you, you have to see what this organisation is doing. So So imagine the idea that somebody's actually joining your business, as opposed to becoming a customer. And the real change is, that means we have to focus. If we're going to create that if we're going to take that point of view, we have to focus less on transactions, 

John Jantsch  19:09 

and more on the transformations that our customers are seeking. I don't think anybody fundamentally disagrees with that idea. But let's make it practical, like how do you do that? Your five questions, you might want to take a picture of this because I've got way too much on one slide. But that kind of sum up this idea. The key to thinking of your customers as members is to start thinking about where they are today, and where they want to go, you know, what stage is our customer in now? And where do they want to go? Now many of you are in digital marketing space. And so quite often, you're probably like me, the stage our most of our customers come to us on is foundational, I mean, they need they need their website and their SEO and their content, you know, fixed they need a marketing strategy, you know, before we can really even move forward. Now they can't I'm just wanting customers. But what we know is that the challenges they're facing, really come down to the fact that their foundation, their marketing foundation is not built. So they're in that stage. And we also, then, because we've been doing it for years have been able to identify, well, here are the milestones that we must accomplish, or they must, as customers achieve, to take them to the next stage. And of course, we know the action steps. So we're able to very easily say, Okay, here's where this customer is, ultimately, we know where they want to go. But we have to accomplish these steps, these milestones, these tasks. But if we do, we can actually promise them, here's what's going to happen when you move to that next stage. So I'll unpack this a little more. But think of it as you know, what stage are my current customers, my best customers in today? What are the characteristics? I mean, these are, this is how you recognise them, right? You know, what challenges they're having? I mean, that's how you actually are able to sell to their pain points. But then, what are the milestones? And you may not think about it this way, but you've probably developed and you probably like: Okay, well, if somebody needs a website, we have to do X. And then finally, what's the promise? Now, the thing about milestones is that I love them as questions, because theoretically, there's only two answers yes or no. So a milestone is not, is the website effective? Well, I have no idea. But a milestone might be in foundational stage. Does the website look good on a mobile device? Well, that I can say yes or no to? If I say yes, great. Move on. What's the next step? If the answer's no, I know exactly what to do next. Now, the thing about this idea of a customer success track, as I call it, is that once you develop where your best customers are today, and what the commonalities are there, then it's a matter of saying, Okay, what's the next stage? What's the next stage. So for example, you know, a lot of businesses and I think the you all can probably relate to this come to us in the stage of needing foundation built. Once we get that foundation built, now we can actually start spending money generating leads, because we know it'll be effective. And then the next stage might be now we can start consistently converting leads, and then it might be monthly recurring revenue, and then it might ultimately be get the business so that it can scale. So we know and can build these tracks based exactly on on that idea of, of taking them from where they are today, to where they want to go. Now, this idea, certainly can can work as a roadmap for marketers, and you're all marketers on here. If you do happen to pick up the book, I've got a complete resource site that goes along with it, it'll give you exactly our customer success track for marketing. But what it's done for us is it's actually become our mission. I mean, our mission now and everybody wringing their hands about, you know, creating mission statements. I mean, our mission statement is very simple. It's to take our customers from where they are today to where they want to go, that's becomes our message. When we're out there selling, it's very easy. Instead of yes, we're gonna fix today's problem. But here's the roadmap for where we're going. It informs our whole training and process development, it actually is changed the service offerings, as we've kind of realised what we have to add to our business to take them to the next level. And it certainly impacts our hiring as well. I'm gonna leave you with one last sort of really deep thought. It's probably too deep for for a marketing conversation. But you know, everybody's familiar with the term YOLO. I mean, it's, it's practically you only live once it means practically, again, entrepreneurial mantra. As I was writing this book, I was listening to a podcast, Seth Godin akimbo you're probably familiar with Seth at least. And he has a little bit at the end that people call in, they leave messages, ask questions. And so this particular day, Howard, who's a teacher, high school teacher in New York, called in and said: You know, my students are always say, this term YOLO. And I want to kind of change the conversation about it, because it's usually when they're getting ready to go out and do something stupid. So ask them to rethink this idea. I ask them to consider something. I want them to think in terms of the next time they go meet with a friend, I want you to consider I want you to imagine that this friend is going to die soon. And you know it. They don't. And you can't tell them. I want you to go into that conversation was a new Knuth raise Tolo. They only live once. 

John Jantsch  24:44 

Now, again, as I said, maybe kind of a dramatic thought for a marketing conversation. But didn't you just feel a moment of shift without thinking, I wonder if the next prospect or customer or teammate that you have a conversation with, you went in with that point of view, I wonder if it might change something. You know, because in the end, I mean, we are, there was all this digital stuff in front of us, we are just people selling to other people. And we all only get to live once, and we can act like it. So, again, that is it. For my presentation phase, I'd love it. If you'd connect with me, it's just John at duct tape marketing, ultimate marketing engines where the concept of this book and just because you all are agencies, I also want to invite you to check out we actually have a network of independent marketing consultants that that, that collaborate and train and really licence all of our, our entire methodology. And so you can just find that at ducttapemarketing.com, if you want to check that out, as well. So, Robert, any any questions you want to? Want us to go to? 

Robert Craven  25:56 

Yes, yes, I've got a bunch that have been texted to me. I think people will start putting them down in the chat. And of course, firstly, big clap. And thank you very much, John, that's been absolutely great. And I love the even that even though everyone was on mute the the silence of Tony, where you thought you could actually feel your own going? Oh, let me just think about that. That's absolutely lovely. The first question is, is this balancing long term? Is this about balancing a long term sustainable model versus a get rich quick model? 

John Jantsch  26:33 

Yeah, I, I haven't figured out the get rich, quick model. So I, you know, I've never been able to to crack that one. So yeah, that's, you know, I always tell people that marketing is a system and not an event. And it really never, and you're never done with your marketing with, you know, I mean, we have a customer, my longest running customer, has been with me since 2004. And it just, we just had our annual planning meeting yesterday. And it's just it's always, you know, it's we're always evolving. We're always maturing. So yeah, it's definitely a long term sustainable model. 

Robert Craven  27:12 

Cool, lovely, lovely. put your questions in the chat. So another another one is, how do you systematise referrals?  

John Jantsch  27:23 

Well, you know, the easy kind of cheeky answer there, I'll give you my American term there is as to buy my book, the Referral Engine. But but but the real answer is really just make it an intentional process. Start by putting it in the sales conversation. If if you know somebody is going to be thrilled with the work that you do with them, tell them that ahead of time and tell them that you're going to make sure they're thrilled and that you're going to come back and you're going to ask them to, to share three or four people other in their world that also need that kind of result in their life. So it starts there. But then it also starts with, with, you know, making sure that you are doing once a quarter sending out something your customers talking about referrals, having events for those people that already refer business to you so that they feel like champions. I mean, there's it really just comes down to, you know, a lot of people just want to hack, what's the one thing I need to do? You know, how do I ask or how do I get them to do what I want them to do? And it's really just a matter of putting it in as process and being consistent. 

Robert Craven  28:31 

Nice, nice. Amanda, do you want to ask the question yourself, and you got more accurate answer rather than me reading it out?  

Speaker 3  28:40 

Yeah. So hi, thank you for that. It was really interesting. And quick question for you. We obviously with our clients, we have referrals within our recommendations, and we tried to promote that ourselves. What are your what's your view on incentivizing referrals within the agency? World? 

John Jantsch  28:55 

Yeah. So I think you have to either go all in or, or not. So in other words, what I mean by that were a lot of people get in trouble is like, every deal is a new deal. It's like somebody says they want to send you referrals, like give me 15%, you know, or something. And I think what you want to do is you want to control the process and say that, you know, you either you need to decide that the universe keeps score, and you're going to work with people who, you know, mutually sort of reciprocate, and not try to keep score. And just realise that, you know, hopefully everybody wins, you know, in that. And again, if maybe you have to go through every now and then say, You know what, this is not a team player, we're not going to continue to work with that person. Or you create a process where you create your own network, you create your own strategic partner network of folks that you really rely on heavily, that you start thinking: Okay, any of my customers that need X, I'm going to bring, you know, this is who I'm going to bring to the table, and that you actually start you you actually create your own referral club, you know, where you all are meeting, teaching people you know how to generate referrals to teach other, I mean, go all in, and then make it something where you create like a point system. You know, for an introduction, it's so many points for a referral that turns into business, it's X amount of dollars or points. So so either Serena decide you're not going to incentivize or go all in and say: Look, we have a formal programme. It's really fun and cool. And we all benefit from it, by all playing and all helping each other. 

Speaker 3  30:28 

 Oh, thank you. 

Robert Craven  30:30 

Cool, good, good. So the next question is about getting more customers, which is, do you do you think getting more customers is about hunting or farming? 

John Jantsch  30:44 

Well, can I get my consultant answer? It depends. But, but but really, it's, it's all. To me, it's always about farming. And I know that, you know, there are a lot of people that that don't take that point of view. But to me, it's always about attracting, you know, that ideal customer and you attract that ideal customer through for me, and I guess, maybe that deserves a little explanation. But you know, the hunting ideas, like your outbound selling your, you know, you're going and looking at people's websites, and then going and saying, Hey, we can, you know, we can review your website and make it a whole lot better. Well, the problem with that is, is, to me, an ideal customer is, is one that, that finds you, that follows you, that you educate, you know that, that you actually teach how to be an ideal customer. And to me, that's, you know, that that's the whole point of farming, is that, you know, a lot of times we get, we get the customers we deserve. And that, you know, that comes about by us teaching somebody how to be an ideal customer. And we get and, you know, I've always believed, again, this comes from being in business a long time you start, you start to experience and believe this is that we get to choose who we want to work with. And I think that that to me, happens, you know, by mostly by farming, or by at least identifying, you know, who you want to hunt. So for example, one of the the, the ideal traits of a customer, for me, is a customer that participates in the community that participates in their industry, maybe serves on a chapter local chapter of their their national industry, because that, to me, is a real marker of first off, they're in it for the long term, usually, or you don't do that. They believe that marketing, typically they believe that marketing is an investment at that point, because they're investing in their community. So they believe they have an investment mentality. And so that's an example of us identifying what we call an ideal behaviour that would allow us to say, we'll go hunt that customer. And we're very selective basis, because we know they'll be ideal. 

Robert Craven  33:05 

Nice. So one question is, do you think that digital digital agencies have have kind of got it wrong, because they think it's all about performance and numbers or conversion, when really, traditional marketing agencies are far more about brand and message and warm things. So it's pointy heads versus painting by numbers. 

John Jantsch  33:34 

So I think that there is some confusion that probably requires a distinction. Everybody's lumping whatever it is, we're doing now into digital marketing, because hey, the customer seems to have an idea of what that means. And unfortunately, that's leading to a lot of tactic obsession. So what I believe the distinction needs to be as digital marketing agencies and growth agencies. And there's definitely a difference in who they work with should work with. And obviously, how they're set up. A digital marketing agency should be about strategy. First, a growth agency should be about in many cases, working on the kinds of things that that get traction growth and scale. So you know, a growth agency should focus on almost exclusively on SEO content and and paid and, and maybe conversion rate optimization, as as really kind of their sweet spot. So somebody comes to them with a strategy, and they just need growth now. And there's a there's to me, there's a real place in the market for an agency that calls themselves and specialises in that. But But I think generically more generically, a digital marketing agency should be guiding and developing, helping a customer helping a customer first and foremost understand who their customer is, understand their core point of difference, understand what their customer journey And he should look like, and then developing the tactics to to actually help them meet their goals. 

Robert Craven  35:06 

So do you think the PR agency is dead? Because really, they're just a Content Agency? Or? 

John Jantsch  35:12 

Well, they've definitely changed will would I call them dead? No, they've definitely changed. And, and you're right. I mean, they've, that's, a lot of times when somebody, you know, pitches me, I have a podcast and I get pitched to lots of, of various people to be on my show. And a lot of times PR people basically pitch me is, you know, the strategy of PR, is you have to be blogging. Okay, that doesn't really seem like ours. I mean, it's no question, you know, PRs place now, if it exists, is, is in some media relations, but certainly content and probably, you know, to some degree, an aspect of social as well. But it's, you know, it. In my early days of doing this, you know, PR was mostly about media relations, because there was no sort of direct line, necessarily to the media. But now we not only have a direct line to the media, we have a direct line to our customer. 

Robert Craven  36:07 

And why do you why do you think people haven't got the customer first customer is king mantra, because we're all customers. And yet, so I've just spent this afternoon trying to book a training room. And every website you go to, there's no phone number, if you phone through, it goes dead, that I've got 15 hotels, I've been trying to give money to come up here. He's not here today. And it's, it's mind numbing. They're all I can't believe all 15 high quality hotels in London, are that rubbish customer service? What's going on there?  

John Jantsch  36:44 

Well, I'm gonna give people a little bit of a pass right now. And that is just we can't hire anybody. I mean, you know, it's, I don't know, if it's the same way in the UK, but in the US, most industries, you know, restaurants are at about 50%, you know, operation right now, you know, any kind of service like, you know, automobile service knows. I mean, there's just, there's nobody to answer the phone, there's, you know, so I mean, that's, hopefully that situation will correct itself, but I'll give them a little bit of past there. But I will say to answer what I think your real question is, is that a lot of people talk about being customer first or customer centred, because it sounds good, because that's what we're supposed to be. But customer, a customer centric point of view is culture more than it is marketing. And, you know, because you think about the organization's everybody's in marketing, I don't care what your job title is, or what you do, I mean, at this hotel, the person that is, that is, you know, cleaning your room is interacting with customers, and performing a marketing function, whether they, you know, think that or believe that or been told that at all. And so, you know, great customer service, great customer centricity, you know, is really a culture and it comes from the, from the leadership, you know, I often say this in front of a lot of CEOs, and I can just see them grown, is that, you know, your, your employees are treating your customers exactly way, exactly the same way they're being treated by you. And, you know, you see the light bulb go on and go, Oh, crap, I hope that's not true. But, but that's, you know, that's, that's, that's how I view this idea of being customer centric, is it just can't be language or something that you think of in your annual planning meeting. And it, it has to be lived every every day in every aspect of the business. 

Robert Craven  38:40 

But they they don't, I mean, um, so my first business was, was a restaurant and a cafe. And it was, so it's all about engagement. And I would argue, I'd argue the word at the moment, in my mind is engagement, I just want to talk to someone, I don't mind paying more than that might be my age. But in this and wherever you go, it seems that most organisations are more interested in efficiency. And this quick sale, we're about to the short term isn't really there about the quick sale, it's stuck at high, yada, yada, yada. And, and so they're missing, I would argue they're missing out on the benefits of what you're talking about, which is a long term relationship where someone comes back and says, Can I write a testimonial for you? 

John Jantsch  39:23 

Well, and so one way to view this, Robert, is look at the opportunity for us. Because the bars the bar so low, right? You know, to do that, and I will say that, you know, part of the challenge is it's not something that you just, you know, write in a memo one day, it's something that you have to enforce and reinforce and train and teach and hire for I mean, one of the one of the things about hiring is that pretty much everything we do in our agencies can be taught to somebody with, you know, a fair amount of, of ability. There very few things that can't be taught except we can't teach people to care, we can't teach people to, you know, be inquisitive, which is really what we need is people that care and people that are curious, and everything else we can teach. And so maybe that, you know, that's, that's the part. But you know, we're so in many cases, when we're trying to fill a position, we want it today, you know, but you find the, you find those people that care there, you find those people that are curious. And those are going to be people that that, you know, can can and will deliver that customer experience, as long as you, as the owner of the business are not also talking about those darn customers life would be great if we didn't have them. Because I certainly see that from a lot of business owners. 

Robert Craven  40:48 

Because there's a question here, which is, five years ago, Google was the only gig in town. How do you see the agency of the future? So I guess, that's really talking about the fact that there are so many different platforms and so many different ways to skin, the cat now. 

John Jantsch  41:10 

I'm platform diagnostic, quite frankly. And I think that we get too obsessed about what's the next new thing, quite frankly, what I would obsess more about is, what is the next new opportunity to add value to your existing customer. It might be a platform, but it might also just be provide coaching, provide training for their team, I mean, one of the things that we recently launched as a, what we call the certified marketing manager programme, so the clients that we're working with now, if we're going to help them mature, their marketing, the bottom line is they need a team internally, I don't care what they hire us to do, you know, we can't take pictures of the of the owners dog that comes into the office, which is great social media content. I mean, they need an internal team. And so while we develop strategy, and you know, maybe do the implementation as part of an engagement, we're also offering to level up their people to at least give them a common language, they may all be great marketers, but there's nobody that's given them a kind of a common through and common language and common, you know, thought thinking about strategy. So, you know, I would think less about the programmes, or the platforms, and more about ways that you could actually scale with your existing customers add more value. 

Robert Craven  42:29 

Nice one, there's another one here, which is what do you what do you think marketing agencies are missing in their marketing of themselves? Maybe they maybe they weren't listening to the last hour. But anyhow, what are you missing in marketing themselves? 

John Jantsch  42:48 

Modelling, I mean, that's where I see the biggest is like, we go out and tell her, our clients, they need to do X, Y, and Z, and we're not doing it ourselves. And, you know, that's, you know, to me, the big miss, and I get it, I mean, you know, I truly do, I mean, the demand for what we do is so huge, that meaning that there are businesses that need marketing, that you could probably build a nice client base without a website. scary as that sounds, but I think you could do it, you know, if you've got the goods, if you go out and network, you could probably get enough clients, you know, without actually having a website for your business. But you know, long term is, you're not going to scale of that, of course, so that would certainly limit what your objectives are. But it also, to me, when we get clients, we attract them the exact same way that we're going to teach them to attract business. And it's a really easy conversation, because half the time they go, I mean, we've actually had people say I want you to do to my customers, what you did to me, and, you know, the whole process of attracting them of educating them of running them through the customer journey, they're already bought in. And so it makes it much easier for us. We don't, I don't need 4000 blog posts, you know, I don't need to show up for you know, all of the search terms and the organic traffic that we get, that doesn't really pay me very much. But what it does or has done, you know, and admittedly, this is over a long period of time, has created a model where it's very easy for us to tell people you know, we're going to, here's what we need from you, here's what we are going to pitch you doing and we can prove it works. 

Robert Craven  44:28 

So it's walking the talk.  

John Jantsch  44:30 

Yeah, I mean, do you ever anybody ever get those pitches from SEO firms that say they're gonna put you on the top of page one and then you like Google? Their company is I will don't see you anywhere? Yeah, 

Robert Craven  44:42 

 Yeah, well, they are they still they are they go to a conference of I don't know. opticians and there's like 400 opticians and they say, we're gonna put you if you come to us, we'll put your number on top of number one. So there's 400 people you're making that promise there's just no way it's going to happen. I think I think the questions are drying up. Nothing is He else comes in on the chat. I guess my, my final question to you is, what is what are the things that you find? You have to say to people? What are the, like the kind of the one line, gold nuggets that you hear yourself saying a lot? Because people need to hear it. And you almost see people go. Oh, I think I think I hear at this time. 

John Jantsch  45:26 

Well, the two things I've been saying for 30 years are the marketing is a system and it starts with strategy before tactics. And quite frankly, the first time I said that to a group of small business owners, I could I could physically feel them going, Holy crap, why hasn't anybody ever told me that before? And it really, you know, it's, it's, it's been my point of view for, you know, for 30 years. And it's remarkable that it's still it still shocks people, in some instances when I say it. 

Robert Craven  46:01 

Absolutely brilliant. It's been an absolute pleasure talking with you. It's been great having these questions come in. It's been great being able to talk to the man so to speak, because I think very often we get stuff second or third hand so we get our view. And it's it's been really nice to kind of put you in the hot seat and kind of interrogate you. Thank you very much. Everyone, clap their hands in the traditional manner. And that's actually great. Thank you so much for being a really excellent guest. And thank you very much, everyone for coming along. Thanks very much indeed.